70 Attend Donegal Meeting on Future of Republicanism and Socialism

[Nijinsky]

http://eirigi.org/latest/latest110308.html

More than 70 people attended a meeting on the future of republicanism and socialism in Dungloe, Co Donegal on Saturday evening past (March 8). The meeting, which was organised by local republican activist Micheál Mac Giolla Easbuig, was addressed by civil rights activist Bernadette McAliskey, éirígí chairperson Brian Leeson and local independent councillor Thomas Pringle.

The format for the gathering at Ionad Tempall Chróine saw each of the three speakers addressing the theme of ‘Are there any Republicans Left?’ before questions and comments were taken from the floor.



In her contribution Bernadette outlined her view of the current state of republicanism in Ireland, drawing a number of historic parallels with the 1916-1921 period. In particular she drew attention to the fact that no one party had sole claim to the title of republicanism - either then or now. Bernadette re-enforced this point by highlighting the fact that James Connolly had never been a member of Sinn Féin and yet no-one would challenge his credentials as a leader of Irish republicanism and socialism.

In the contemporary context Bernadette acknowledged that the claims of parties like Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael to be republican had to be accepted at face value – albeit that they represented the narrowest, anti-monarchic form of republicanism. In this regard it was necessary to draw a distinction between those republicans who believed that the issues of national liberation and social liberation were inseparable and those who did not. Similarly a distinction needed to be drawn between those republicans who were willing to accept, and administer, British rule in Ireland and those who were not.

In closing, Bernadette outlined her belief that there was a fundamental difficulty for socialist republicans in aligning themselves with non-socialist republicans or nationalists and that history had repeatedly demonstrated that socialists always come out the worst from such alliances. If socialists are to avoid such damaging alliances in the future they must first examine how they have worked in the past.

Brian Leeson used his speaking time to address the topic of why éirígí was founded and also the theme of ‘what shapes change’ in society. It was under this theme that Brian explained why éirígi was engaging in political campaigns; believing that such campaigns had the potential to highlight the most glaring examples of injustice in our society and thus galvanise support for a socially-based alternative.

Brian also highlighted that it had taken over a hundred and twenty years for the then revolutionary concept of republicanism to gain widespread active support in Ireland, from its birth in the late 1790s till post-1916 period. While the battle to gain widespread acceptance and support for the concept of socialism was also being fought out over decades and centuries Brian was upbeat that the inherent logic of social co-operation would ultimately triumph over the illogical concept of social competition.

The last of the three speakers, Thomas Pringle, focused his contribution on how the battle between social and private ownership was being fought out a local level in Donegal. He drew attention to the introduction of privatisation of a number of county council services including water and sewage treatment. He outlined how the funds used to pay private companies to carry out these services would come at the cost of cutbacks and job losses within other areas.

Following on from Thomas a large number of people asked questions and voiced comment relating to both the speakers contributions and the wider issues raised. Everything from policing to land ownership, from widespread public apathy to the Stormont assembly were raised and discussed in an intelligent, constructive and often humorous manner.

More than two hours after the meeting started Micheál drew it to a close by thanking everyone present for attending and encouraging them all to become active in maximising the No vote in the upcoming Lisbon referendum.

Speaking after the meeting éirígí chairperson Brian Leeson congratulated those who had organised and taken part in the meeting, ‘Tonight’s meeting was asking the question ‘Are there any Republicans Left?’. If the tonight’s turnout is anything to go by the answer to that question must be yes - at least in west Donegal.

‘Roughly seventy people gave up two hours of their Saturday evening to engage in a discussion on where republicanism and socialism in this country are headed. Given that there were people representing many different strands of republicanism present it is a real testament to all concerned that the discussion was as constructive and as comradely as it was.’

[Liam Lynch]

Was it an open invitation event or were individual groups notified and invited?

[Foyleview]

Was it an open invitation event or were individual groups notified and invited?

i knew nothing about it.

[FTA69]

knew nothing about it.

Sure you wouldn't have gone anyway. :icon_lol:

This meeting is heartening news.

[Liam Lynch]

Sure you wouldn't have gone anyway. :icon_lol:

This meeting is heartening news.

Was it publicly advertised even?

[Comrade Ryan]

It was advertised locally and was in the local newspaper.

Open invitation public meeting.

[tireoghan]

Good to see open debate among Republicans of varying opinions. Would like to have heard Bernie McAliskey speak.

[Liam Lynch]

What groups were there?

[Foyleview]

It was advertised locally and was in the local newspaper.

Open invitation public meeting.

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

[Ernie O'Malley]

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

Éirigi cannot rely on the Gardai/RUC to make up the numbers at their meetings though....

[FTA69]

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

It's more than often attend public meetings and protests by your own party. I'd wind your neck in lad.

[ardonian]

Lad would be a complement to that child

[robertemmett]

what was interesting about it was that it was a "debate", that must be a strange concept to the psfers... the ability to state a point of view, without fear that you are offending against the central line agreed by the leadership.

[robertemmett]

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

how many psfers are attending the protesting against the english queen's visit to armagh next week?

the revolutionary party of psf, who pin up pictures of marx, guevera, connolly and sands ARE having a protest, aren't they??:hmmm:

[dddd]

I'm not sure if all this socialist stuff draws people to republicanism. Yes, we want Ireland to be for the people. But people, by and large, are happy with the way society is now. Perhaps it would be easier to draw support if the aim was narrowly pointed at a United Ireland alone.

[ciaranxavier]

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

why?

[Foyleview]

I'm not sure if all this socialist stuff draws people to republicanism. Yes, we want Ireland to be for the people. But people, by and large, are happy with the way society is now. Perhaps it would be easier to draw support if the aim was narrowly pointed at a United Ireland alone.



I think it is important that as well as the goal of uniting Ireland we also strive to create a new Ireland.
republicanism and socialism to me are about equality. not that every one has to be equal but that everyone should have equal opertunity.
equal opertunity for health care
equal opertunity for education
equal opertunity for wealth creation
equal opertunity for gender
equal opertunity regardless of colour, religion or politics

[Irish Republican Patriot]

I think it is important that as well as the goal of uniting Ireland we also strive to create a new Ireland.
republicanism and socialism to me are about equality. not that every one has to be equal but that everyone hould have equal opertunity.
equal opertunity for health care
equal opertunity for education
equal opertunity for wealth creation
equal opertunity for gender
equal opertunity regardless of colour, religion or politics#

Fair enough, all admirable objectives, but Socialism is about alot more than "equality" (what kind of equality?). I don't think that "equal opportunity for wealth creation" is really a Socialist concern. Rather, more of a Liberal objective.

[ciaranxavier]

how many psfers are attending the protesting against the english queen's visit to armagh next week?

the revolutionary party of psf, who pin up pictures of marx, guevera, connolly and sands ARE having a protest, aren't they??:hmmm:

i dont think theyre allowed now that they uphold the queens law protesting her visit would be considered treason wouldnt it?

[Foyleview]

#

Fair enough, all admirable objectives, but Socialism is about alot more than "equality" (what kind of equality?). I don't think that "equal opportunity for wealth creation" is really a Socialist concern. Rather, more of a Liberal objective.

so you believe all socialists should be poor.

[ciaranxavier]

so you believe all socialists should be poor.

depends on what you mean by equal opportunities for wealth.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

so you believe all socialists should be poor.

No I don't. Moron. I believe in the redistribution of wealth. Individual wealth creation is a feature of capitalism, not socialism. If that offends a fine petty bourgeois like yourself, too bad.

[dddd]

I think it is important that as well as the goal of uniting Ireland we also strive to create a new Ireland.
republicanism and socialism to me are about equality. not that every one has to be equal but that everyone should have equal opertunity.
equal opertunity for health care
equal opertunity for education
equal opertunity for wealth creation
equal opertunity for gender
equal opertunity regardless of colour, religion or politics

I'd love to see that too. But I'm not sure the Irish people want a "New Ireland" society. A lot of them may be worried that radically new liberal ideas will stop them going to Tescos. Republican parties may have more success if they narrowly publicise themselves as about a United Ireland. When we've got the United Ireland, then you can see what the people think about socialism

[Foyleview]

I'd love to see that too. But I'm not sure the Irish people want a "New Ireland" society. A lot of them may be worried that radically new liberal ideas will stop them going to Tescos. Republican parties may have more success if they narrowly publicise themselves as about a United Ireland. When we've got the United Ireland, then you can see what the people think about socialism

yes i do see what you are saying. i just think that all these things run in cycles.
we would then be accused as being a one issue party and not fit for governance.
.

[Foyleview]

No I don't. Moron. I believe in the redistribution of wealth. Individual wealth creation is a feature of capitalism, not socialism. If that offends a fine petty bourgeois like yourself, too bad.


you have the nicest way of selling your point.

How will you redistribute wealth that is not created ?

tell me what wealth you would redistribute , to whom, from whom and how ?

[wjeilis]

It was DeValera, I believe who said that labour must wait, ie the need to properly address the core issues of socio-economic inequality must wait until the national question was resolved. Well, 82 years have passed since Dev abandoned the Republic and founded Fianna Fail in 1926. Labour is still waiting. Those who would say that labour should wait again fail to understand what Connolly meant when he proclaimed: "We are out for Ireland for the Irish. But who are the Irish? Not the rack-renting, slum-owning landlord; not the sweating, profit-grinding capitalist; Not these are the Irish upon whom the future depends. Not these, but the Irish working class, the only secure foundation upon which a free nation can be reared.

The cause of labour is the cause of Ireland, the cause of Ireland is the cause of labour. They cannot be dissevered. Ireland seeks freedom. Labour seeks that an Ireland free should be the sole mistress of her own destiny, supreme owner of all material things within and upon her soil. Labour seeks to make the free Irish nation the guardian of the interests of the people of Ireland, and to secure that end would vest in that free Irish nation all property rights as against the claims of the individual, with the end in view that the individual may be enriched by the nation, and not by the spoiling of his fellows."

[ciaranxavier]

you have the nicest way of selling your point.

How will you redistribute wealth that is not created ?

tell me what wealth you would redistribute , to whom, from whom and how ?

what do you mean by equal opportunities for wealth foyle?

[Foyleview]

what do you mean by equal opportunities for wealth foyle?


what i mean is that every boby should have or be given an equal opertunity for wealth creation.
this is made up a number of things.
Childcare- this effects woman and wealth creation
education- end class based schools, have best practice for all.
end social housing projects. - only have housing projects were council tenant and private owner live together.
encourage and support small to mediam local businesses

[Comrade Ryan]

70 !. sure that must have only been the speakers and their familys.

What? What type of clown are you? Really?

There were three speakers, only one of which would be 'local'.

There was a good cross section of society at the talk, which took place outside of any major population centres on a Saturday night of all times.

70 people is a very good turn out for what was a constructive discussion. What in gods name would be your objection?.

Trying calling a SF one there, same tme, same place, and compare.

I know you really hate anyone who isn't in SF, but really you need to grow up.

Your posts are tired drivel and you have been destroyed countless times, due to your Johnny come lately status no doubt, so what you really need to be displaying is a little humility.

[Comrade Ryan]

I'm not sure if all this socialist stuff draws people to republicanism. Yes, we want Ireland to be for the people. But people, by and large, are happy with the way society is now. Perhaps it would be easier to draw support if the aim was narrowly pointed at a United Ireland alone.

No thanks.

[Comrade Ryan]

I think it is important that as well as the goal of uniting Ireland we also strive to create a new Ireland.
republicanism and socialism to me are about equality. not that every one has to be equal but that everyone should have equal opertunity.
equal opertunity for health care
equal opertunity for education
equal opertunity for wealth creation
equal opertunity for gender
equal opertunity regardless of colour, religion or politics

You are a social democrat, a la new labour, not a socialist.

[Comrade Ryan]

what i mean is that every boby should have or be given an equal opertunity for wealth creation.
this is made up a number of things.
Childcare- this effects woman and wealth creation
education- end class based schools, have best practice for all.
end social housing projects. - only have housing projects were council tenant and private owner live together.
encourage and support small to mediam local businesses

See this 'equal opportunity for wealth creation' lays bare your politics.

So even if we all go to the same school, even if all our mommys can put us in day care, even if we all grow up in the same streets, there is nothing which defines how this leads to equality under your vision.

So if all of this is equal, how will society be different?

People will still have differing talents which are not valued equally. If someone isn't much of a talker, isn't a good multi-takser, etc, but is good with his hands, what will his fait be?

Probably to be a wealth producer for someone who has all the chat, is prepared to 'bend the rules', is a good organiser, ruthless with staff, etc.

So what you envisage is not a equal distribution on wealth, it is just the image of an equal start. Lining up a crowd of toddlers and shouting go! They all had the same start but will finish differently. Those who get ahead, good, those who don't? Well they can pay for the holiday homes of those who did.

[FTA69]

I'm not sure if all this socialist stuff draws people to republicanism. Yes, we want Ireland to be for the people. But people, by and large, are happy with the way society is now. Perhaps it would be easier to draw support if the aim was narrowly pointed at a United Ireland alone.

It wouldn't though, that's the thing. Any Republican project that failed to address the daily struggles of people in Ireland has always flopped. Irish unity is not a pressing issue amongst our people, that is the simple fact; the only way to make it an issue is to connect it with social and economic politics. Put simply, people in Cork or Dublin couldn't care less about the border, they care about paying the mortgage, the health service, education and work. If you aren't relevant to those issues then you aren't politically relevant at all.

Ordinary people don't support abstract notions (as most view Irish unity) in the place of concrete solutions to their problems. I agree with you in a sense, Irish society is greed-driven and money-orientated. However, even those amongst the "middle-class" are in a precarious situation, paying through the nose for VHI and mortgages on houses they won't own until they are 75. There is a lot of sh*t in the unequal society which we have, and plenty of issues to tap into.

[Foyleview]

See this 'equal opportunity for wealth creation' lays bare your politics.

So even if we all go to the same school, even if all our mommys can put us in day care, even if we all grow up in the same streets, there is nothing which defines how this leads to equality under your vision.

So if all of this is equal, how will society be different?

People will still have differing talents which are not valued equally. If someone isn't much of a talker, isn't a good multi-takser, etc, but is good with his hands, what will his fait be?

Probably to be a wealth producer for someone who has all the chat, is prepared to 'bend the rules', is a good organiser, ruthless with staff, etc.

So what you envisage is not a equal distribution on wealth, it is just the image of an equal start. Lining up a crowd of toddlers and shouting go! They all had the same start but will finish differently. Those who get ahead, good, those who don't? Well they can pay for the holiday homes of those who did.


that is such a screwed up interpetation of what i said

[Irish Republican Patriot]

that is such a screwed up interpetation of what i said

Ideas of "equal opportunity for wealth creation" are typically expressed by capitalist rather than socialist parties. There's little point in denying that.

[RisenBelfast]

For me the Republic is a society that allows all people to reach their true potential. Not a society that allows some to succeed and some to fail. Not a society where the attainment of wealth is the definition of a person but were happiness and fulfillment are the factors we judge society by.

This is where I see those any old UI's as squandering the sacrifice of many in the pursuit of unity for it's own sake rather than as a mechanism to achieve true and lasting change for the people.

The provisionals thinking strikebreaking, water taxes, PPP/PFI, asset stripping, welcoming non-unionised employers, cosying up to the fascist US, and business over people budgets is the most glaring example of how some would lead us to a unified country just as bad or worse than the divided nation we currently have.

[wjeilis]

RisenBelfast:

Aontaím leat agus

Éirígí, nó

Éireóimid arís

[Comrade Ryan]

that is such a screwed up interpetation of what i said

Really? Correct it then.

[Comrade Ryan]

RisenBelfast:

Aontaím leat agus

Éirígí, nó

Éireóimid arís

Any translation for non-irish speakers?

[scarface]

Any translation for non-irish speakers?

Let us rise or we will rise again

[Comrade Ryan]

Let us rise or we will rise again

Thanks for that.