Republican Unity

[Liam Lynch]

Does éirígí work with other groups?
We in éirígí believe that a Democratic Socialist Republic can only be established and sustained through the collective action of a progressive social movement incorporating local communities, organised labour, cultural organisations, campaigns groups, political parties etc. The very diversity of such a coalition will be its strength. We in éirígí will be part of such a coalition, working on shared projects with other progressive individuals and groups in Ireland.
This co-operation and outreach to other progressive forces cannot be restricted to the island of Ireland. The fight against capitalism and imperialism is by necessity a global one. The emergent global justice movement represents a real and growing bulwark to oppression and exploitation throughout the world. We in éirígí believe that it is from within this movement that a new and truly progressive era of international co-operation and solidarity will emerge. We in éirígí would seek to play an active role within this movement.

Will eirigi engage with the Republican Unity Initiative?

[mickyk200]

Will eirigi engage with the Republican Unity Initiative?
well if PSF force the PAC to disband I very may will join and leave Orga. And they do appeal to RSF and the like so I think they are a nice middle ground.

[belfast rep]

Will eirigi engage with the Republican Unity Initiative?

I beleive they knocked it back in Belfast?

[Liam Lynch]

I beleive they knocked it back in Belfast?

Not with you I'm afraid?

[Comrade Ryan]

I beleive they knocked it back in Belfast?

Really?

Any details?

[inchicore_republican]

Any Eirigi picket I have been on has had many different Republican groups present.

[Liam Lynch]

Any Eirigi picket I have been on has had many different Republican groups present.

I appreciate that but would it extend say to a joint Easter Commemoration in the future? Or participation in the Republican Unity Forum?

[Nijinsky]

I appreciate that but would it extend say to a joint Easter Commemoration in the future? Or participation in the Republican Unity Forum?


What groups are involved in the 'Republican Unity Forum'?

[Liam Lynch]

What groups are involved in the 'Republican Unity Forum'?

32CSM, IRSP, Concerned Republicans and some non aligned.

[Nijinsky]

32CSM, IRSP, Concerned Republicans and some non aligned.


Sorry for my ignorance Liam but who are 'Concerned Republicans'?

[Liam Lynch]

Sorry for my ignorance Liam but who are 'Concerned Republicans'?

My error, Concerned Prisoners, Republican Network For Unity.

[RisenBelfast]

Seems clear to me that éirígí will work with any progressive grouping on areas of shared concern. I've sat in a room with IRSP, IWM, éirígí and others but I personally find it hard to support some of the current 'unity' projects as they seem more about demonising and attacking SF than creating progressive projects that will grow Republicanism.

[wherenow]

Cad a raibh an scéal ag Croke Park? Bhi Rsf ag ait amhain, agus bhil eirigi ag an ait eile.

What about Croke park? Eirigi were at one end of the street and RSf at the other.

[Jim]

I personally find it hard to support some of the current 'unity' projects as they seem more about demonising and attacking SF than creating progressive projects that will grow Republicanism.

Care to explain that a little further?

[RisenBelfast]

Jim,

No problem. When I was looking for a home, or debate on several contentious issues many of the meetings I went to were mostly SF bashing sessions. It turned me off.

The policing ones were the worst.

I don't want to hear why 'they' are wrong (time and time again ad nauseum). I only want to hear why 'we' are right.

[Jim]

Jim,

No problem. When I was looking for a home, or debate on several contentious issues many of the meetings I went to were mostly SF bashing sessions. It turned me off.

The policing ones were the worst.

I don't want to hear why 'they' are wrong (time and time again ad nauseum). I only want to hear why 'we' are right.

I personally have never accepted justfied criticism of the psf leadership as psf bashing.
If no one criticised others for doing wrong then were would the whole political situation be now?
Would i be safe to assume you recently left the provos?

Did you read or listen to what people debating from our movement had to say in regards to opposition to the british police and how the policing issue and the constituitional issue could not be separated.

I fail to see how your perceived opinion of shinner bashing has prevented republican progression in the republican unity project.
Our cork cumann and the irsp are having a joint easter parade and not to mention other aspects of republican unity that are been worked on,its an ongoing project.

[mickyk200]

I personally have never accepted justfied criticism of the psf leadership as psf bashing.
If no one criticised others for doing wrong then were would the whole political situation be now?
Would i be safe to assume you recently left the provos?

Did you read or listen to what people debating from our movement had to say in regards to opposition to the british police and how the policing issue and the constituitional issue could not be separated.

I fail to see how your perceived opinion of shinner bashing has prevented republican progression in the republican unity project.
Our cork cumann and the irsp are having a joint easter parade and not to mention other aspects of republican unity that are been worked on,its an ongoing project.
na Jim yer sch-weet =]

[Jim]

na Jim yer sch-weet =]

Isnt it past your bedtime? Leave the debating for the grown ups.

[mickyk200]

Isnt it past your bedtime? Leave the debating for the grown ups.
my mammy lets me stay up as long as I don't sleep in thmara so *blows raspberry*

[Jim]

blows raspberry

Who's he?

[mickyk200]

Who's he?
yer ma!...sorry Ima have til start acting ma age...

[RisenBelfast]

Jim,

Why does it matter when I left? I know some people who will be joining the only announced protest tomorrow, the éirígí one, who are still members of SF. They are more than welcome along with IRSP, RSF, 32CSM, CRaPSNI, Independents, lone rangers etc.

I personally would want every single friend, former/current comrade, SF party loyalist to feel welcome protesting about the Brit queen setting foot in Ireand before every last one of her troops leaves.

I want Shinners and members of that movement to know they are welcome to join the protest. This has nothing to do with their leaderships decisions.

As for Cork - I await the bus, ever, arriving from Cork.

[mickyk200]

Jim,

Why does it matter when I left? I know some people who will be joining the only announced protest tomorrow, the éirígí one, who are still members of SF. They are more than welcome along with IRSP, RSF, 32CSM, CRaPSNI, Independents, lone rangers etc.

I personally would want every single friend, former/current comrade, SF party loyalist to feel welcome protesting about the Brit queen setting foot in Ireand before every last one of her troops leaves.

I want Shinners and members of that movement to know they are welcome to join the protest. This has nothing to do with their leaderships decisions.

As for Cork - I await the bus, ever, arriving from Cork.
Risenbelfast, any chance of a lift thmara lol?

[robertemmett]

CRaPSNI,??? who are these guys??

[mickyk200]

CRaPSNI,??? who are these guys??
I'd assume it's a typo...
CRAPG and PSNI probably...

[Jim]

Why does it matter when I left?

It doesnt but your attitude towards the party will change further down the line in so far as you'll realise that they are undermining your political objectives.

Its the very same for most people that has left them or ceased supporting them only that most people will oppose creating a civil war mentality but not hold back in making justified criticisms.

I know some people who will be joining the only announced protest tomorrow, the éirígí one, who are still members of SF. They are more than welcome along with IRSP, RSF, 32CSM, CRaPSNI, Independents, lone rangers etc.

I personally would want every single friend, former/current comrade, SF party loyalist to feel welcome protesting about the Brit queen setting foot in Ireand before every last one of her troops leaves.


You made some unjustified criticisms in my view of the Republican Unity project which has nothing to do specifically with eirigi's protest agaisnt the queen,a protest which has my support.

Its up to your leadership if they want to get involved in the Republican Unity project but i think making unjustified criticisms and wrongly claiming our members were engaged in shinner bashing are quite uncalled for.

[Hildy]

Seems clear to me that éirígí will work with any progressive grouping on areas of shared concern. I've sat in a room with IRSP, IWM, éirígí and others but I personally find it hard to support some of the current 'unity' projects as they seem more about demonising and attacking SF than creating progressive projects that will grow Republicanism.

Spot on RisenBelfast! I see this happening over and over and over again on thread after thread after thread! Welcome to the forum, and I wish you the best and much success on your protest!

In Solidarity, Hildy

[conghaileach]

CRaPSNI,??? who are these guys??

Concerned Republicans Against PSNI/MI5, I believe. They're now called the Republican Network for Unity.

[Liam Lynch]

Seems clear to me that éirígí will work with any progressive grouping on areas of shared concern. I've sat in a room with IRSP, IWM, éirígí and others but I personally find it hard to support some of the current 'unity' projects as they seem more about demonising and attacking SF than creating progressive projects that will grow Republicanism.

Mo chara, the following were forwarded to eirigi some time ago without any response. Perhaps you could tell us if they warrant a response?

Republican Unity (http://www.32csm.info/ru.html)

Preparing An Irish Democracy (http://www.32csm.info/pid.html)

Dismantling Partition (http://www.32csm.info/dp.html)

[Liam Lynch]

Mo chara, the following were forwarded to eirigi some time ago without any response. Perhaps you could tell us if they warrant a response?

Republican Unity (http://www.32csm.info/ru.html)

Preparing An Irish Democracy (http://www.32csm.info/pid.html)

Dismantling Partition (http://www.32csm.info/dp.html)

Any advance on this post?

[RisenBelfast]

Liam,

This is clearly an issue dear to you and I can understand why but personally I think you are asking too much too soon. éirígí is very much an organisation in it's infancy trying to establish and define both itself and its positions. When you are starting from scratch with a membership driven project surely you accept that defining yourself before defining your relationships with others is the priority?

The party has clearly shown it can work with or alongside others on shared progressive politics but can you not give a little space to let the organisation bed in and develop before expecting it to define itself within broader concepts where it may be a junior or minor voice?

Time my friend, we have lots of it. Let éirígí members do the talking they need to do amongst themselves first before expecting them to enter that much larger and challenging debate on how we can build the most progressive force possible.

Just my views as I've said before and I'm no spokesperson.

[Liam Lynch]

Liam,

This is clearly an issue dear to you and I can understand why but personally I think you are asking too much too soon. éirígí is very much an organisation in it's infancy trying to establish and define both itself and its positions. When you are starting from scratch with a membership driven project surely you accept that defining yourself before defining your relationships with others is the priority?

The party has clearly shown it can work with or alongside others on shared progressive politics but can you not give a little space to let the organisation bed in and develop before expecting it to define itself within broader concepts where it may be a junior or minor voice?

Time my friend, we have lots of it. Let éirígí members do the talking they need to do amongst themselves first before expecting them to enter that much larger and challenging debate on how we can build the most progressive force possible.

Just my views as I've said before and I'm no spokesperson.

Essentially eirigi needs to define why it was founded, and by that I mean it must define itself beyond an all encompassing mission statement. To me looking at eirigi it seems to have adopted a 'safe' position which is basically non committal to any fundamental position which would necessitate a robust defence of its right to exist. It doesn't seem to step on anyones toes even those it claims to be totally opposed to. Sometimes it seems like the militant wing of Ogra Shinn Fein. I fully except your status as non spokesperson and am merely probing on motives for support of eirigi.

[RisenBelfast]

the militant wing of Ogra Shinn Fein

Now that was just needlessly cruel. :icon_lol:

Time my friend, let éirígí find it's feet before it gets up off it's knees. While we are working ourselves out, hows about letting up on the pressure?

[Liam Lynch]

Now that was just needlessly cruel. :icon_lol:

Time my friend, let éirígí find it's feet before it gets up of it's knees. While we are working ourselves out, hows about letting up on the pressure?

Its not pressure, its political normality. Personally why do you believe erirgi was formed, and by that I mean why did it ultimately believe that it had to break with PSF to pursue its agenda.

[RisenBelfast]

Just as a by-the-by on the youth thing. Not many teenagers at the protest and there was more than a few people at the protest that spent their youth and much more in gaol for the cause ,others lost families etc etc.

éirígí ain't no middle-class student fad.

[RisenBelfast]

Liam,

For me it was simple, we eventually understood we couldn't argue from the inside, alter the direction or achieve what we had fought/worked for. We recognised we were beat. Took a while but we hadn't stopped trying while on the other side. So instead of the fireside we decided as individuals or in groups we had enough fuel in the tank and fire in the belly to give it another go.

That's my view of my comrades and they may disagree.

[Liam Lynch]

Liam,

For me it was simple, we eventually understood we couldn't argue from the inside, alter the direction or achieve what we had fought/worked for. We recognised we were beat. Took a while but we hadn't stopped trying while on the other side. So instead of the fireside we decided as individuals or in groups we had enough fuel in the tank and fire in the belly to give it another go.

That's my view of my comrades and they may disagree.

But argue for what, argue against what?

[RisenBelfast]

Did the world start for you in 1998 or something?

[Liam Lynch]

Did the world start for you in 1998 or something?

No indeed, but it manifested itself then into arguing a credible position as to why we acted as we did. I mean the first question we were asked was why? We had to have an answer.

[RisenBelfast]

I've a simple answer. If people accept it or not is their problem - I was wrong, thought things would work out different - I'm sorry and trying my best to fix it. That's me. Everyone has their own story.

[Liam Lynch]

I've a simple answer. If people accept it or not is their problem - I was wrong, thought things would work out different - I'm sorry and trying my best to fix it. That's me. Everyone has their own story.

I understand your sentiment but politics punishes the sentimental. Accept what? Fix it how? I've no problem denuding the 32CSM position as to why we acted as we did, I've no problem explaining how we tried to fix what we could not accept.

[RisenBelfast]

Liam,

I won't be sifting through the bones of where I was, it does no good. I'm, with comrades, moving forward - the past is just the past. You may want to fiddle around in this heap, I don't.


Do you want me to say you were righter for getting it earlier or something? If it makes you happy, you were. Happy?

Now how does this crap you've forced build unity?

[Liam Lynch]

Liam,

I won't be sifting through the bones of where I was, it does no good. I'm, with comrades, moving forward - the past is just the past. You may want to fiddle around in this heap, I don't.


Do you want me to say you were righter for getting it earlier or something? If it makes you happy, you were. Happy?

Now how does this crap you've forced build unity?

No, mo chara, I'm not trying to pin you down to accepting my view or trying to state that eirigi can only be such and such so long as they accept a certain view. I'm trying to pin down why eirigi feels it needs to exist independent of what is already out there.

[mickyk200]

No, mo chara, I'm not trying to pin you down to accepting my view or trying to state that eirigi can only be such and such so long as they accept a certain view. I'm trying to pin down why eirigi feels it needs to exist independent of what is already out there.
Liam, they are a party with no historical baggage like already existing movements ya have to admit that.

[Liam Lynch]

Liam, they are a party with no historical baggage like already existing movements ya have to admit that.

But they're not. They broke form Sinn Fein. As did FF, FG etc.

[mickyk200]

But they're not. They broke form Sinn Fein. As did FF, FG etc.
Do they account for SF actions?

[Liam Lynch]

Do they account for SF actions?

Well they do to the extent that they have to explain exactly what Sinn Fein actions forced them to depart.

[mickyk200]

Well they do to the extent that they have to explain exactly what Sinn Fein actions forced them to depart.
when did they split from SF..I've only paid much attention to them as of late

[Liam Lynch]

when did they split from SF..I've only paid much attention to them as of late

Such questions are best addressed toward them, mo chara.

[mickyk200]

Such questions are best addressed toward them, mo chara.
I assumed you were aware of their history...

[Comrade Ryan]

Any advance on this post?

Is their an eirigi spokesperson that you're aiming these at?

[Comrade Ryan]

Liam,

What are you trying to do here?

You appear to be saying that you are merely looking for clarification but thats not what it comes across as, no it comes across as mischief making.

I think the reasons for forming eirigi are obvious. People who thought there was a need for a political project which would best advance republican socialism looked around and felt none which were in existence met their needs or desires so they set about creating one.

What is the problem?

Why the need to be fixated on what they will or will not do. If you are happy with your project then continue with it and leave others to do the same.

If there is a convergence at some point great if not fine. But I fail to see how anyone striving for a socialist republic, in a real way, deserves anything other than respect and encouragement.

[Liam Lynch]

Liam,

What are you trying to do here?

You appear to be saying that you are merely looking for clarification but thats not what it comes across as, no it comes across as mischief making.

I think the reasons for forming eirigi are obvious. People who thought there was a need for a political project which would best advance republican socialism looked around and felt none which were in existence met their needs or desires so they set about creating one.

What is the problem?

Why the need to be fixated on what they will or will not do. If you are happy with your project then continue with it and leave others to do the same.

If there is a convergence at some point great if not fine. But I fail to see how anyone striving for a socialist republic, in a real way, deserves anything other than respect and encouragement.

Mo chara I think there is a need for clarity because eirigi, like other republican groups, are putting themselves forward as a republican alternative. That has to be tested to check its political veracity. To me there exists sufficient fog surrounding the reasons for their departure from PSF to warrant inquiry because that can and will impact on its future direction.

Open debate is treating eirigi with respect and encouragement that's why we forwarded them our take on the issue of unity but we still await a reply. The issue of unity, like armed action, is not going to go away, it needs to be addressed because all republican groups would certainly agree that no one group can push us over the last hurdle, hence the need for unity in some shape and that armed action is inevitable because of the nature of the problem.

[Hildy]

Liam,

What are you trying to do here?

You appear to be saying that you are merely looking for clarification but thats not what it comes across as, no it comes across as mischief making.

I think the reasons for forming eirigi are obvious. People who thought there was a need for a political project which would best advance republican socialism looked around and felt none which were in existence met their needs or desires so they set about creating one.

What is the problem?

Why the need to be fixated on what they will or will not do. If you are happy with your project then continue with it and leave others to do the same.

If there is a convergence at some point great if not fine. But I fail to see how anyone striving for a socialist republic, in a real way, deserves anything other than respect and encouragement.

I agree with Comrade Ryan, I think éirígí has something appealing about them other republicans obviously do too otherwise, they wouldn't be gaining membership. They are unique, in that they are not a 'hard sell', but another republican alternative.

I don't understand the criticism from some members at all. Do you feel threatened by them Liam? Fair play to them and we as republicans should all stand in solidarity for any party or group that wants to achieve the same goals through peaceful means!

[Liam Lynch]

Hildy if I was toasting every member you'd come out and condemn them for that very reason. If they are an alternative then let them be scrutinised just like the rest of us.

[Hildy]

Hildy if I was toasting every member you'd come out and condemn them for that very reason. If they are an alternative then let them be scrutinised just like the rest of us.

Liam, scrutinize away! I have no problem with you doing that, if it takes SF out from under the microscope and your criticism, then that pleases me to no end. But by doing that, it just goes to show that ANY other republican group that doesn't think like you do should be 'scrutinized' and 'criticized' and I don't believe that. There is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

Cheers, Hildy

[ciaranxavier]

Liam, scrutinize away! I have no problem with you doing that, if it takes SF out from under the microscope and your criticism, then that pleases me to no end. But by doing that, it just goes to show that ANY other republican group that doesn't think like you do should be 'scrutinized' and 'criticized' and I don't believe that. There is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

Cheers, Hildy

here is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

so you do hope the republican armies in existence and their political counterparts have success in their endeavors?

[Hildy]

here is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

so you do hope the republican armies in existence and their political counterparts have success in their endeavors?

You must have trouble at reading comprehension. No that is not what I said!

[ciaranxavier]

You must have trouble at reading comprehension. No that is not what I said!

But by doing that, it just goes to show that ANY other republican group that doesn't think like you do should be 'scrutinized' and 'criticized' and I don't believe that. There is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

again this is what you said ^^^^

it just goes to show that ANY other republican group that doesn't think like you do should be 'scrutinized' and 'criticized' and I don't believe that. There is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

does this include ANY republican group like YOU said, or does it only extend to those YOU support.

[Hildy]

again this is what you said ^^^^

it just goes to show that ANY other republican group that doesn't think like you do should be 'scrutinized' and 'criticized' and I don't believe that. There is room enough for them all as far as I'm concerned, and I wish them success!

does this include ANY republican group like YOU said, or does it only extend to those YOU support.

Yada Yada Yada Yada!

[ciaranxavier]

Yada Yada Yada Yada!

why dont you answer the question it is a simple question about something YOU said. you know clear it up for me. your childish remark fails to do so.

[Comrade Ryan]

Mo chara I think there is a need for clarity because eirigi, like other republican groups, are putting themselves forward as a republican alternative. That has to be tested to check its political veracity. To me there exists sufficient fog surrounding the reasons for their departure from PSF to warrant inquiry because that can and will impact on its future direction.

Open debate is treating eirigi with respect and encouragement that's why we forwarded them our take on the issue of unity but we still await a reply. The issue of unity, like armed action, is not going to go away, it needs to be addressed because all republican groups would certainly agree that no one group can push us over the last hurdle, hence the need for unity in some shape and that armed action is inevitable because of the nature of the problem.


Well what there is a need for is allowing people space and time to explore their options as a unit.

What is required is that any new group builds on a solid foundation, which can only happen with the widespread debate, education and agreement amongst its membership.

People who are interested in eirigi as an alternative are in touch with them and receiving answers. And one of the answers might just be, that they don't as of yet have all the answers. That they are exploring their future direction in the only way possible - internally.

Until its direction is cast, until it is sound, then there would be no merit in joining with others in any unity project - for either side.

What benefit would there be in them getting involved in something that they have not analysed totally - as a party?

There may be more benefit for some in that possiblity, but you, like others, have no alternative but to await developments.

What is not required is for the group to jump through anyones hoops nor live by anyone elses timetable.

I say give them time to set their own course OR leave them alone.

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]Well what there is a need for is allowing people space and time to explore their options as a unit.

What is required is that any new group builds on a solid foundation, which can only happen with the widespread debate, education and agreement amongst its membership.

Agreed. But surely its members must have debated as to why they should leave PSF and on what grounds. You cannot build a solid foundation on contradiction and there appears to be contradictions in eirigi's position in relation to this. The debate to leave PSF is over because it has acted on it. All I'm looking for is clear reasons as to why.


People who are interested in eirigi as an alternative are in touch with them and receiving answers. And one of the answers might just be, that they don't as of yet have all the answers. That they are exploring their future direction in the only way possible - internally.

Sound, but as Foyleview pointed out its easy to be all things to all men its only when decisions have to be taken that your through mettle is tested. I would like to know why eirigi refused to take part in the joint Bodenstown Commemoration last year?

Until its direction is cast, until it is sound, then there would be no merit in joining with others in any unity project - for either side.

And debate with others should form an essential part of that process.

What benefit would there be in them getting involved in something that they have not analysed totally - as a party?

But this goes back to the basic point of what exactly eirigi represents, not just what its declared aims are.

There may be more benefit for some in that possiblity, but you, like others, have no alternative but to await developments.

What is not required is for the group to jump through anyones hoops nor live by anyone elses timetable.

I say give them time to set their own course OR leave them alone.

So they're not an alternative, yet?

[Nijinsky]

Liam Lynch You cannot build a solid foundation on contradiction and there appears to be contradictions in eirigi's position in relation to this.

What contradiction are you referring to?

[Liam Lynch]

Liam Lynch

What contradiction are you referring to?

The GFA for one. And this is what brings me back to the basic point; on what issue(s) did they leave PSF and why?

[Nijinsky]

The GFA for one. And this is what brings me back to the basic point; on what issue(s) did they leave PSF and why?

What contradiction have they relating to the GFA?

[Liam Lynch]

What contradiction have they relating to the GFA?

The GFA represented a fundamental departure from the republican norm. It recognised British sovereignty over part of Ireland. If that was not a spur to depart then what subsequent PSF political actions prompted them to do so?

[Nijinsky]

The GFA represented a fundamental departure from the republican norm. It recognised British sovereignty over part of Ireland. If that was not a spur to depart then what subsequent PSF political actions prompted them to do so?

But are you saying that they supported the GFA or just that they didnt leave at the time of it?

I would know a few of the lads that are currently in éirigi from my time in SF and know that like myself that they consistently opposed the GFA within SF and worked to try to change the SF position in relation to that. I presume, but dont know this for a fact, that a point came where they realised that they could not turn the movement around and decided it was time to move on.

I was in a similar position in that I opposed where the movement were going but stayed for many years and fought to change that direction before eventually leaving when I felt that I could not effect the change that I thought necessary.

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]
But are you saying that they supported the GFA or just that they didnt leave at the time of it?

I'm saying I don't know why they left and on what specific issues. This is critical on trying to get a handle on where they intend to go.

I would know a few of the lads that are currently in éirigi from my time in SF and know that like myself that they consistently opposed the GFA within SF and worked to try to change the SF position in relation to that. I presume, but dont know this for a fact, that a point came where they realised that they could not turn the movement around and decided it was time to move on.

I was in a similar position in that I opposed where the movement were going but stayed for many years and fought to change that direction before eventually leaving when I felt that I could not effect the change that I thought necessary.

There is a difference between leaving PSF and leaving it to form another political group. That formation must be able to point to specific reasons or instances to jusify the formation in the first place.

[Nijinsky]

Liam Lynch: I'm saying I don't know why they left and on what specific issues. This is critical on trying to get a handle on where they intend to go.

Then why not just go and ask some of them? I'm sure many people left over many different things but basically because of the direction SF had taken




Liam LynchThere is a difference between leaving PSF and leaving it to form another political group. That formation must be able to point to specific reasons or instances to jusify the formation in the first place

You dont need any justification to form a political party other than having policies to promote. The policies of éirigi are quite different from those of SF. Also not everybody in éirigi were previously members of SF and of those that were, not everyone left SF at the one time.

Some had left SF before the group was formed, others have left SF after the group was formed

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]Then why not just go and ask some of them? I'm sure many people left over many different things but basically because of the direction SF had taken


Well we are in the eirigi Forum.



Liam Lynch

You dont need any justification to form a political party other than having policies to promote. The policies of éirigi are quite different from those of SF. Also not everybody in éirigi were previously members of SF and of those that were, not everyone left SF at the one time.

Some had left SF before the group was formed, others have left SF after the group was formed


I appreciate the membership point but it still remains the fact that eirigi was born of PSF and I'm just trying to nail down why.

[Nijinsky]

Liam Lynch: Well we are in the eirigi Forum.

We are, but I dont know who, if any, are members of éirigi here. Do you know any members personally you could ask?


Liam Lynch I appreciate the membership point but it still remains the fact that eirigi was born of PSF and I'm just trying to nail down why

Because they disagreed with the policies of SF and support different policies? They tried to change them from within like many others did, and when they came to the conclusion they were fighting a losing battle they left and started their own grouping?

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]We are, but I dont know who, if any, are members of éirigi here. Do you know any members personally you could ask?

I'm endeavoring to do that alright but I would like the opinion of more than one.




Because they disagreed with the policies of SF and support different policies? They tried to change them from within like many others did, and when they came to the conclusion they were fighting a losing battle they left and started their own grouping?

All sound logic but what policies?

[Nijinsky]

Liam Lynch: All sound logic but what policies?

Well if you go through their website you will find where they stand on most issues.

[Comrade Ryan]

Agreed. But surely its members must have debated as to why they should leave PSF and on what grounds. You cannot build a solid foundation on contradiction and there appears to be contradictions in eirigi's position in relation to this. The debate to leave PSF is over because it has acted on it. All I'm looking for is clear reasons as to why.

See now we're getting to the bones of it. You are more interested in autopsies than futures.

Whilst, with all due respect, it is none of your business why individuals chose to leave PSF as individuals (eirigi did not leave PSF individuals did), I will say something on the matter.

eirigi is made up of people who left PSF for a variety of reasons, although the under lying theme is usually the same. They also left at different times. No-one has wasted a second of their time interogatting one another as to why they left a day, week, month, or year after someone else.

eirigi thus has no position on why it left PSF, because eirigi didn't leave PSF, many individuals within it however did. And again, thats their business. If you choose not to join or work with eirigi because people refuse to engage in this type of conversation, then so be it.



Sound, but as Foyleview pointed out its easy to be all things to all men its only when decisions have to be taken that your through mettle is tested. I would like to know why eirigi refused to take part in the joint Bodenstown Commemoration last year?

Well how are eirigi attempting to be all things to all people? This is somethign i've seen quite a bit from you and others here but i've yet to see any justification for the accusation.

You speak of true mettle beng demonstrated when decisions are taken. well again i'll say something on the matter. As an individual of course.

The mettle of most of those in eirigi is not open for debate. Most played fairly central roles in the provisional movement and thus their mettle is proven.

Most were to the forefront of that movement and took whatever knocks, threats and trageties were dished out without rolling over an dplaying dead. Thus their mettle is demonstrated.

They showed their mettle when they left a movement that they been involved with fora considerable time and faced up to all the disdain, demonisation and alienation that went with it. Instead of sloping off and just getting on with their own lives they decided to return to the fight. This demonstrates their mettle.

Now if you question their mettle because the refused an invitation to join a commemoration with the 32CSM and the IRSP, well so be it. If you wish to have the commemoration and feel its the best move for you, then fair play to you.

Likewise, others will make whatever decision seems right for them at any given time and they are under no obligation to share that decision-making process with anyone else.

You will continually run into problems if you make decisions and expect others to fall in with what you decided. If it best for you, go for it. I'm sure eirigi never wasted a second debating whether or not you should have done it, they just accepted your decision.



And debate with others should form an essential part of that process.?

Well first off, deciding upon ones own future involves one essential element, internal discussion and debate.

Secondly, you seem to be of the impression that eirigi exists in a bubble and hasn't held discussions with others outside of the group. This would be a mistake.



But this goes back to the basic point of what exactly eirigi represents, not just what its declared aims are.

It represents a new vehical through which people will pursue a socialist republic. If you wish to know more, perhaps you can request a meeting.


So they're not an alternative, yet?

Of course they are an alternative. An alternative that people may find attractive as they can shape its direction not inherit it.

[Liam Lynch]

Well if you go through their website you will find where they stand on most issues.

I know that but a simple comparison of published documents between themselves and PSF doesn't really reflect the actual debate which took place within PSF prior to their departure. As in your membership example some policies may have been developed solely as an eirigi process where as others are policies that are born of their difference with PSF.

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]See now we're getting to the bones of it. You are more interested in autopsies than futures.

That's not true. One thing the 32CSM does harper on about is the reasons for our departure from the PRM. We did however establish solid reasons for doing so and on that basis we developed our programme.

Whilst, with all due respect, it is none of your business why individuals chose to leave PSF as individuals (eirigi did not leave PSF individuals did), I will say something on the matter.

eirigi is made up of people who left PSF for a variety of reasons, although the under lying theme is usually the same. They also left at different times. No-one has wasted a second of their time interogatting one another as to why they left a day, week, month, or year after someone else.

So give us some of these reasons and tell us how they helped secure common cause to form eirigi?


eirigi thus has no position on why it left PSF, because eirigi didn't leave PSF, many individuals within it however did. And again, thats their business. If you choose not to join or work with eirigi because people refuse to engage in this type of conversation, then so be it.

That sounds like an RSF technical obfuscation to be honest. But what the 32CSM put toward eirigi wasn't even responded to and yet in its mission statement it clearly states that it will work with other groups. Is there a reason therefore that eirigi will not work with the 32CSM and if so why? I don't think that's too much to ask given eirigi's stated position.





Well how are eirigi attempting to be all things to all people? This is somethign i've seen quite a bit from you and others here but i've yet to see any justification for the accusation.

I'll tell you how as I see it. It is committed to nothing specific. It generalises and seems to adopt bet hedging stance. And coming from a position of unprecedented conflict and betrayal specifics to me are important.

You speak of true mettle beng demonstrated when decisions are taken. well again i'll say something on the matter. As an individual of course.

The mettle of most of those in eirigi is not open for debate. Most played fairly central roles in the provisional movement and thus their mettle is proven.

Most were to the forefront of that movement and took whatever knocks, threats and trageties were dished out without rolling over an dplaying dead. Thus their mettle is demonstrated.

They showed their mettle when they left a movement that they been involved with fora considerable time and faced up to all the disdain, demonisation and alienation that went with it. Instead of sloping off and just getting on with their own lives they decided to return to the fight. This demonstrates their mettle.

Now if you question their mettle because the refused an invitation to join a commemoration with the 32CSM and the IRSP, well so be it. If you wish to have the commemoration and feel its the best move for you, then fair play to you.

Likewise, others will make whatever decision seems right for them at any given time and they are under no obligation to share that decision-making process with anyone else.


That's a bit disingenuous as you seem to jump from the individual to the group. The mettle I spoke of was not about individual persons but the position of the group itself which seems decidedly difficult to pin down. And if it can't be pinned down its mettle is difficult to test.


You will continually run into problems if you make decisions and expect others to fall in with what you decided. If it best for you, go for it. I'm sure eirigi never wasted a second debating whether or not you should have done it, they just accepted your decision.

I don't think its too much to ask eirigi to formally respond to proposals put to it in however way they wish to respond. But simply not responding smacks of an inability to do so. And that is a credible assumption in the absence of refutation.





Well first off, deciding upon ones own future involves one essential element, internal discussion and debate.

Secondly, you seem to be of the impression that eirigi exists in a bubble and hasn't held discussions with others outside of the group. This would be a mistake.


I've never said it hasn't I'm just perplexed that it hasn't fulfilled its own mission statement in relation to this practice. Are they afraid to be seen associating with the 32CSM?




It represents a new vehical through which people will pursue a socialist republic. If you wish to know more, perhaps you can request a meeting.

But hold on eirigi requested the establishment of this Forum. I wholeheartedly supported that but I also stated that it would be essential that eirigi members post in it so that we can have more informed debates and that if questions arose about policy eirigi posters could fill in the gaps without blandly referring people to their website. What's your view on Republican Unity as we have envisaged it and the eirigi mission statement concerning working with other groups?




Of course they are an alternative. An alternative that people may find attractive as they can shape its direction not inherit it.

Its difficult to find them attractive when they seem evasive on some basic points though.

[Comrade Ryan]

That's not true. One thing the 32CSM does harper on about is the reasons for our departure from the PRM. We did however establish solid reasons for doing so and on that basis we developed our programme.

Yes thats what you did and fair play to you. Not everyone is going to tackle their project in the same way, if they did, they'd all end up in the same place.

If they didn't want to end up in a different place then i'd assume they'd just join an existing group.

The problem I see here, and it appears insurmountable in this instance because I cannot speak for eirigi, nor am I or you privy to all that has went between the groups, is that you expect people to do exactly as your group did. They won't.

But even a cursory glance at the policies and news on their site would demonstrate pretty clear blue water between their positions and that of PSF on republicanism and socialism.

So give us some of these reasons and tell us how they helped secure common cause to form eirigi?

I feel neither the desire nor inclination to do so. It is not my place.

But if you were prepared to objective, you would see clear blue water between PSF and eirigi on the matters already outlined above.


That sounds like an RSF technical obfuscation to be honest. But what the 32CSM put toward eirigi wasn't even responded to and yet in its mission statement it clearly states that it will work with other groups. Is there a reason therefore that eirigi will not work with the 32CSM and if so why? I don't think that's too much to ask given eirigi's stated position.

No it doesn't. Not to me anyways. You asked why eirigi left PSF it quite simply didn't happen that way. That is a simple fact that neither I nor you can refute.

Now, you may ask what were individuals reasons, well thats not for me to say. That is a matter for the individuals. But if you have read any of their stuff then you'd see they are clearly more committed to republican socialist ideology and grassroots activism than PSF, as presently constituted.

You ask why eirigi will not work with the 32CSM? Well i'm not sure that they won't. And to assume they won't because thus far they haven't, well that'd be incorrect.

If you require eirigi's stated position on such important matters, well then i'd suggest your group approaches eirigi and not on an internet forum.



I'll tell you how as I see it. It is committed to nothing specific. It generalises and seems to adopt bet hedging stance. And coming from a position of unprecedented conflict and betrayal specifics to me are important..

Well that may well be how you see it, thats a matter for you, what you know and how you interpret it. I'll not get bent out of shape about it.

No-one has asked you to join or work with eirigi - so you can either wait for them to set out their stall, seeing as they are only in their germination period, or not. I would suggest, and hope, that people wait. But ultimately its not my call to make.



That's a bit disingenuous as you seem to jump from the individual to the group. The mettle I spoke of was not about individual persons but the position of the group itself which seems decidedly difficult to pin down. And if it can't be pinned down its mettle is difficult to test...

Its not disingenuous at all. As the group is new and is only in its infancy it is impossible to judge its 'mettle' yet. One may gain a better idea of what they are about by judging its membership, whom have proven their mettle time and time again.

I don't think its too much to ask eirigi to formally respond to proposals put to it in however way they wish to respond. But simply not responding smacks of an inability to do so. And that is a credible assumption in the absence of refutation....

Well to be fair thats a matter for your leadership and theirs. I cannot comment upon it thats for sure.

And a non-response does not indicate an inability to do so, I agree its good manners to acknowledge correspondence, but a failure to do so, in my opinion, doesn't indicate an inability to respond.


I've never said it hasn't I'm just perplexed that it hasn't fulfilled its own mission statement in relation to this practice. Are they afraid to be seen associating with the 32CSM?

Its early days.

The world doesn't revolve around the 32 CSM.


But hold on eirigi requested the establishment of this Forum. I wholeheartedly supported that but I also stated that it would be essential that eirigi members post in it so that we can have more informed debates and that if questions arose about policy eirigi posters could fill in the gaps without blandly referring people to their website. What's your view on Republican Unity as we have envisaged it and the eirigi mission statement concerning working with other groups?

eirigi requested it? Was it not a member or a supporter? Do leaderships regularly request forums here. Don't over egg the pudding Liam.

eirigi members may be posting, but it should be treated like everywhere else here. A few members may post but its difficult to monitor or confirm. Most, I suspect, are not members of anything. Most, at least, are not authorised to speak for their movements.


Its difficult to find them attractive when they seem evasive on some basic points though.

thats your perogative. Their growing membership and support base would suggest others feel differently.

[RisenBelfast]

As an éirígí member nothing interests me less than discussing my or anyone else's reasons for leaving SF.

I'm just not interest in picking over those bones, there is nothing to be gained from it and I certainly won't be doing to indulge the interests of some one else.

I am interested in developing, expanding and being part of rebuilding a popular broad front Republicanism.

As for the lack of response to your documents, it does seem a little rude at the very least and I'll mention your concerns. Though we aren't leadership lead so it would be a membership decision and to be honest the view might be at present our energies are better deployed elsewhere.

[Liam Lynch]

[QUOTE]Yes thats what you did and fair play to you. Not everyone is going to tackle their project in the same way, if they did, they'd all end up in the same place.

If they didn't want to end up in a different place then i'd assume they'd just join an existing group.

The problem I see here, and it appears insurmountable in this instance because I cannot speak for eirigi, nor am I or you privy to all that has went between the groups, is that you expect people to do exactly as your group did. They won't.

But that's my whole point to you. The why's of how they went about their project are elusive to the point that its difficult to see where exactly it is they want to go. Policy needs provenance to explain it fully. Its missing here.



But even a cursory glance at the policies and news on their site would demonstrate pretty clear blue water between their positions and that of PSF on republicanism and socialism.

Yes, but what I'm trying to ascertain is what are those specific differences which compelled people to leave PSF and why? I would imagine that no political party has a member who supports absolutely everything the party stands for but its not enough to force them to leave. What was the seismic shift in PSF policy which compelled the departure?



I feel neither the desire nor inclination to do so. It is not my place.

But if you were prepared to objective, you would see clear blue water between PSF and eirigi on the matters already outlined above.

Did you leave PSF to join/support eirigi?




No it doesn't. Not to me anyways. You asked why eirigi left PSF it quite simply didn't happen that way. That is a simple fact that neither I nor you can refute.

But it seems it can be hid behind. Surely you believe that those who left to form eirigi had the intention to do so whilst still members of PSF?

Now, you may ask what were individuals reasons, well thats not for me to say. That is a matter for the individuals. But if you have read any of their stuff then you'd see they are clearly more committed to republican socialist ideology and grassroots activism than PSF, as presently constituted.

You ask why eirigi will not work with the 32CSM? Well i'm not sure that they won't. And to assume they won't because thus far they haven't, well that'd be incorrect.

If you require eirigi's stated position on such important matters, well then i'd suggest your group approaches eirigi and not on an internet forum.

Well we did but no response. But if you consider them important matters have you satisfied yourself as to the answers?





Well that may well be how you see it, thats a matter for you, what you know and how you interpret it. I'll not get bent out of shape about it.

No-one has asked you to join or work with eirigi - so you can either wait for them to set out their stall, seeing as they are only in their germination period, or not. I would suggest, and hope, that people wait. But ultimately its not my call to make.


eirigi exists, that's why I question it.




Its not disingenuous at all. As the group is new and is only in its infancy it is impossible to judge its 'mettle' yet. One may gain a better idea of what they are about by judging its membership, whom have proven their mettle time and time again.

It seems almost impossible to judge its position also.



Well to be fair thats a matter for your leadership and theirs. I cannot comment upon it thats for sure.

And a non-response does not indicate an inability to do so, I agree its good manners to acknowledge correspondence, but a failure to do so, in my opinion, doesn't indicate an inability to respond.

Bad manners indeed.




Its early days.

The world doesn't revolve around the 32 CSM.

It sure doesn't Would you see a difficulty in working with the 32CSM? And you can ask me anything you want.




eirigi requested it? Was it not a member or a supporter? Do leaderships regularly request forums here. Don't over egg the pudding Liam.

I think you get my point though.

eirigi members may be posting, but it should be treated like everywhere else here. A few members may post but its difficult to monitor or confirm. Most, I suspect, are not members of anything. Most, at least, are not authorised to speak for their movements.

Its not about speaking on behalf of organisations, I expect that from no poster here other than official statements released. But it is about being informed on your respective organisations policies and thinking to engage in reasoned and informative debate. That's in eirigi's interests too.




thats your perogative. Their growing membership and support base would suggest others feel differently.

Hopefully they'll post why.

[Liam Lynch]

As an éirígí member nothing interests me less than discussing my or anyone else's reasons for leaving SF.

I'm just not interest in picking over those bones, there is nothing to be gained from it and I certainly won't be doing to indulge the interests of some one else.

I am interested in developing, expanding and being part of rebuilding a popular broad front Republicanism.

As for the lack of response to your documents, it does seem a little rude at the very least and I'll mention your concerns. Though we aren't leadership lead so it would be a membership decision and to be honest the view might be at present our energies are better deployed elsewhere.

Reasons for leaving PSF had to be policy reasons. Knowing these in my view is crucial to understanding eirigi.

[RisenBelfast]

It has been explained already that éirígí did not leave en mass and some were never there in the first place. Members have differing reasons for leaving and did so at different times. The only thing shared is a belief that our contribution to creating the Republic was best served through joining and developing éirígí.

[Liam Lynch]

It has been explained already that éirígí did not leave en mass and some were never there in the first place. Members have differing reasons for leaving and did so at different times. The only thing shared is a belief that our contribution to creating the Republic was best served through joining and developing éirígí.

Firstly, eirigi was not spontaneously conceived by ex PSF members, it was planned from within PSF.

Secondly, that's fine, it's a non issue but the political and policy reasons for doing so are an issue because they go to the very heart of eirigi's raison detre.

[Mellows1922]

seriously folks, I think you are being a little unfair to LL here, he clearly has some issues he would like clarified with regards to eirigi, and I don't think he is too out of line in attempting to do so here, is that not what should be happening on a political discussion board ?

[RisenBelfast]

Mellows,

Liam is demanding an éirígí critique of SF. éirígí members and supporters just don't see that of any value or use in building Republicanism. If Liam wants a criticism of SF he should do it himself, éirígí is about building a positive socialist project not a party based on attacking others.

[Jim]

Mellows,

Liam is demanding an éirígí critique of SF. éirígí members and supporters just don't see that of any value or use in building Republicanism. If Liam wants a criticism of SF he should do it himself, éirígí is about building a positive socialist project not a party based on attacking others.

Liam is only asking questions that you will be asked by republicans on a regular basis outside this forum when they are curious to your policies.

[quirk]

I can fully understand the point that eirigi need to find their own feet and work things out amongst themselves before they can work with others. It is evident (or seems evident) though that the membership has already decided that they must work with other groups on certain issues. This question seems resolved so why is their actions in contradiction to their stated position on this issue?

Does éirígí work with other groups?
We in éirígí believe that a Democratic Socialist Republic can only be established and sustained through the collective action of a progressive social movement incorporating local communities, organised labour, cultural organisations, campaigns groups, political parties etc. The very diversity of such a coalition will be its strength. We in éirígí will be part of such a coalition, working on shared projects with other progressive individuals and groups in Ireland.
.......... We in éirígí would seek to play an active role within this movement.http://eirigi.org/about_us/faq.htm

[Liam Lynch]

Mellows,

Liam is demanding an éirígí critique of SF. éirígí members and supporters just don't see that of any value or use in building Republicanism. If Liam wants a criticism of SF he should do it himself, éirígí is about building a positive socialist project not a party based on attacking others.

No mo chara I am not. I want to ascertain the core reasons as to why eirigi members/supporters felt it necessary to leave PSF and set up shop themselves. It's not about pitting eirigi against PSF or anyone else for that matter. Its about understanding the thinking behind eirigi's founding and where it is such thinking is likely to bring them. PSF are tangential to this discussion.

[Comrade Ryan]

No mo chara I am not. I want to ascertain the core reasons as to why eirigi members/supporters felt it necessary to leave PSF and set up shop themselves. It's not about pitting eirigi against PSF or anyone else for that matter. Its about understanding the thinking behind eirigi's founding and where it is such thinking is likely to bring them. PSF are tangential to this discussion.

How about this? I'd imagine most people in eirigi who left SF (not all were ever in it) did so because they felt SF was going down a reformist route which could not deliver on the individuals republican or socialist beliefs.

I know its patently obvious but no-one said it was rocket science.

[RisenBelfast]

Comrade,

The problem with that is its only partially reflective of the situation and only for some people. Liam is hoping for a collective opinion when the reality is you are talking about varied individuals that all share one thing - the belief that éirígí is the best vehicle for advancing their Republicanism. That's the right answer but unlikely to satisfy Liam's desire for an agreed éirígí critique of SF.

Adds: And if I was Liam I'd be more concerned about why all those people didn't arrive at the conclusion his organisation was where they should be going. And he's just as unlikely to get an agreed éirígí position presented on that either.

[Comrade Ryan]

Comrade,

The problem with that is its only partially reflective of the situation and only for some people. Liam is hoping for a collective opinion when the reality is you are talking about varied individuals that all share one thing - the belief that éirígí is the best vehicle for advancing their Republicanism. That's the right answer but unlikely to satisfy Liam's desire for an agreed éirígí critique of SF.

Adds: And if I was Liam I'd be more concerned about why all those people didn't arrive at the conclusion his organisation was where they should be going. And he's just as unlikely to get an agreed éirígí position presented on that either.

I agree that why I said most.

[Liam Lynch]

Comrade,

The problem with that is its only partially reflective of the situation and only for some people. Liam is hoping for a collective opinion when the reality is you are talking about varied individuals that all share one thing - the belief that éirígí is the best vehicle for advancing their Republicanism. That's the right answer but unlikely to satisfy Liam's desire for an agreed éirígí critique of SF.

Adds: And if I was Liam I'd be more concerned about why all those people didn't arrive at the conclusion his organisation was where they should be going. And he's just as unlikely to get an agreed éirígí position presented on that either.

Whether you like to concede it or not but the formation of eirigi constitutes a split from PSF. It is important to be clear on the reasons why this occurred because it represents the first defining position of what eirigi represents. It also represents the first point of critique for those interested in republican politics. Equally it represents, or should do, a clear line of demarcation between the two because it is this clarity which allows eirigi to develop independently from those whom it was born from.

And again I have to put it to you that a belief that eirigi was a product of post resignation ex PSF members is utterly disingenuous. If eirigi has difficulty explaining in clear terms its origins how is any observer capable of discerning whether or not there exists reformist tendencies within its core thinking.

[RisenBelfast]

Liam,

If you want to know about reformism ask about it. éirígí spokespersons have publicly criticised the 'Nationalist and reformist cul-de-sac' Republicanism has found itself in.

Issues of policy and position can be addressed without reference to SF's positions.

[Liam Lynch]

Liam,

If you want to know about reformism ask about it. éirígí spokespersons have publicly criticised the 'Nationalist and reformist cul-de-sac' Republicanism has found itself in.

Issues of policy and position can be addressed without reference to SF's positions.


But I can only ask about it comprehensively if I'm aware as to the exact reasoning and issues upon which eirigi left PSF. The comparison is an imperative because it was eirigi's first political and ideological act.

[FTA69]

But that's the thing Liam, Éirigi didn't leave SF; originally the group contained but six people and was simply a campaigns group in the Dublin area, it is now a political party with members all over the country. The organisation was and is in flux, it is going through a stage of development during which all of its members, who come from a variety of backgrounds, will have an input. It wasn't as if the party suddenly sprung out of the Provos fully formed.

It is not a dodge to point out the fact that there were was no one set of reasons why people ended up in Éirigi, rather a consensus by some that the vehicle that they were involved in was not one that could have led to our objectives. Out of that consensus (still only held by some) came a small campaigns group, out of that came a political party which is still being shaped.

The Provisional movement was not and is not a monolith, it contains people of all opinion, even today it contains people who are disagreeing internally about the direction in which it is headed. The fact that people didn't leave after 1986, or 1998 does not equate with them as individuals inherently supporting either the GFA or anything else.

[Liam Lynch]

But that's the thing Liam, Éirigi didn't leave SF; originally the group contained but six people and was simply a campaigns group in the Dublin area, it is now a political party with members all over the country. The organisation was and is in flux, it is going through a stage of development during which all of its members, who come from a variety of backgrounds, will have an input. It wasn't as if the party suddenly sprung out of the Provos fully formed.

It is not a dodge to point out the fact that there were was no one set of reasons why people ended up in Éirigi, rather a consensus by some that the vehicle that they were involved in was not one that could have led to our objectives. Out of that consensus (still only held by some) came a small campaigns group, out of that came a political party which is still being shaped.

The Provisional movement was not and is not a monolith, it contains people of all opinion, even today it contains people who are disagreeing internally about the direction in which it is headed. The fact that people didn't leave after 1986, or 1998 does not equate with them as individuals inherently supporting either the GFA or anything else.

I've no doubt its position ad policy will change as it develops but the change can only be evaluated against its original stance and that stance was born of differences within PSF. Be it six or twenty six that originally formed it is irrelevant, what is relevant is why those six acted as they did and on what issues which attracted others to it. Clearly their original analysis of the PSF position/direction is what prompted them to act and also attracted others to it. Why is it so difficult to lay that original analysis bare?

I agree that members have/will join for varying reasons some of which will have nothing to do with previous issues with PSF but that still doesn't belie the fact that the original reasons for founding it shouldn't be passed over when discussing, or trying to, where eirigi intends to go.

I'm not trying seek out technical contradictions to beat members of eirigi with concerning past associations with PSF but I am trying to find out where it intends to go and its origins in conjunction with its now stated policies is how I hope to achieve this.

[RisenBelfast]

So now you want to know why a few people left SF to set up a campaigns group and use that to define the ideology of a party with a much bigger membership and policy that was only set by a membership beyond that small group of people.

You've been told time and time again, éirígí is not defined by any individuals' view on SF and is solely based on membership driven discussions on how best to advance Republicanism.

You are flogging a dead horse, no éirígí member is going to play this game of lets find out what you really think about SF with you.

If you want to know about policy ask. If it exists you'll be told, if it doesn't you'll be told.

SF is SF and éirígí are too busy building their own project to obsess on them.

[Liam Lynch]

So now you want to know why a few people left SF to set up a campaigns group and use that to define the ideology of a party with a much bigger membership and policy that was only set by a membership beyond that small group of people.

You've been told time and time again, éirígí is not defined by any individuals' view on SF and is solely based on membership driven discussions on how best to advance Republicanism.

You are flogging a dead horse, no éirígí member is going to play this game of lets find out what you really think about SF with you.

If you want to know about policy ask. If it exists you'll be told, if it doesn't you'll be told.

SF is SF and éirígí are too busy building their own project to obsess on them.

One would have thought that you'd build on the reasons for forming in the first place. I fail to see the difficulty in this.

[conghaileach]

You are flogging a dead horse, no éirígí member is going to play this game of lets find out what you really think about SF with you.

Good for them. I honestly can't see what productive value it could have.

[Liam Lynch]

Good for them. I honestly can't see what productive value it could have.

Its not about discussing PSF, it's about discussing eirigi.

[on the one road]

Whether you like to concede it or not but the formation of eirigi constitutes a split from PSF. It is important to be clear on the reasons why this occurred because it represents the first defining position of what eirigi represents. It also represents the first point of critique for those interested in republican politics. Equally it represents, or should do, a clear line of demarcation between the two because it is this clarity which allows eirigi to develop independently from those whom it was born from.

And again I have to put it to you that a belief that eirigi was a product of post resignation ex PSF members is utterly disingenuous. If eirigi has difficulty explaining in clear terms its origins how is any observer capable of discerning whether or not there exists reformist tendencies within its core thinking.

liam man, god or budda or a freek of coinsidance gave us all imaginations and emotions. As long as human beings have theese things you can't put to much fate in cosistancy. people will and should be respected for changeing there mind.

[Liam Lynch]

liam man, god or budda or a freek of coinsidance gave us all imaginations and emotions. As long as human beings have theese things you can't put to much fate in cosistancy. people will and should be respected for changeing there mind.

Indeed. I'd respect them even more than I do now if they told me what they changed their minds on, why, and what to?

[wjeilis]

Slándáil is a great word.

[Liam Lynch]

Slándáil is a great word.

So is debate.

[wjeilis]

Tá an focal "slándáil" níos fearr

[Comrade Ryan]

Indeed. I'd respect them even more than I do now if they told me what they changed their minds on, why, and what to?

Well this topic is about as dead as it'll get.

Liam, you have been told time and time again, no-one is going to go through this with you.

eirigi did not spring out of PSF, nor was it conceived inside it. It was formed as a campaigns group by a handful of people in dublin who still wanted to pursue republican and socialist politics but had no vehicle for doing so.

Now it is populated by many more people, from a variety of backgrounds, and is in the process of development. The conversations you are seeking are so pointless that they are not even had within eirigi.

All people are concerned with is building a socialist republican platform and discussing the best way of doing so.

No one is picking over bones or re-visiting tired old ground.

If thats what you and your movement like to do then all the more power to you.

But not everyone does - so as far as i'm concerned the conversation is pointless, groundless, directionless, and over.

[Liam Lynch]

Well this topic is about as dead as it'll get.

Liam, you have been told time and time again, no-one is going to go through this with you.

eirigi did not spring out of PSF, nor was it conceived inside it. It was formed as a campaigns group by a handful of people in dublin who still wanted to pursue republican and socialist politics but had no vehicle for doing so.

Now it is populated by many more people, from a variety of backgrounds, and is in the process of development. The conversations you are seeking are so pointless that they are not even had within eirigi.

All people are concerned with is building a socialist republican platform and discussing the best way of doing so.

No one is picking over bones or re-visiting tired old ground.

If thats what you and your movement like to do then all the more power to you.

But not everyone does - so as far as i'm concerned the conversation is pointless, groundless, directionless, and over.

So eirigi has no political provenance?

[Comrade Ryan]

So eirigi has no political provenance?

You have had your answer from me - you may not like it - but sometimes life just sucks that way.

[Liam Lynch]

You have had your answer from me - you may not like it - but sometimes life just sucks that way.

Your answer seems to be that you do not wish to address what that political provenance actually is. Are we to take it that if PSF did not go in a certain direction eirigi would be in existence anyhow? Or is this refusal to debate the origins of eirigi an attempt to rewrite those origins?

[Comrade Ryan]

Your answer seems to be that you do not wish to address what that political provenance actually is. Are we to take it that if PSF did not go in a certain direction eirigi would be in existence anyhow? Or is this refusal to debate the origins of eirigi an attempt to rewrite those origins?

you have been told that I cannot provide an over arching view for you - so your pursuit of the same is futile.

[Liam Lynch]

you have been told that I cannot provide an over arching view for you - so your pursuit of the same is futile.

Issues like this do not go away.

[Comrade Ryan]

And neither does the reality - that an over-arching view cannot be given as there is not likely to be consensus as to why people left PSf, particularly among those who were never in it.

But sure pursue it if you wish.

[Liam Lynch]

And neither does the reality - that an over-arching view cannot be given as there is not likely to be consensus as to why people left PSf, particularly among those who were never in it.

But sure pursue it if you wish.

But there has to be some common ground between leaving PSF and joining/forming eirigi? One is not completely detached from the other no matter how much you may wish that to be.

[Comrade Ryan]

But there has to be some common ground between leaving PSF and joining/forming eirigi? One is not completely detached from the other no matter how much you may wish that to be.

You are quite determined comrade. I applaud that :eusa_clap:

But alas nothing has changed, I can't provide and answer as I do not believe a credible nor representative one exists.

[boiler-1888]

You are quite determined comrade. I applaud that :eusa_clap:

But alas nothing has changed, I can't provide and answer as I do not believe a credible nor representative one exists.
The question Liam is asking, is why eirigi set up shop on their own?

The 32csm broke off from Sf because it felt that Sovereignty had been compromised by the PSF leadership. It is clear as that.

But why has eirigi set up shop on its own?

The simple fact that eirgi can't answer this simple enough question further raises suspicions on why they were set up in the first place.

[Comrade Ryan]

The question Liam is asking, is why eirigi set up shop on their own?

The 32csm broke off from Sf because it felt that Sovereignty had been compromised by the PSF leadership. It is clear as that.

But why has eirigi set up shop on its own?

The simple fact that eirgi can't answer this simple enough question further raises suspicions on why they were set up in the first place.

Suspicions? Amongst who?

The reasons why eirigi was set up are clear. In fact, it has been clear to me since their inception, I think people must be very determined to think otherwise.

Eirigi was set up by people who no longer had a vehicle to pursue their politics. They believe in strong and clear republican socialism and think that it must take the form of credible activism.

They obviously didn't feel that there was another grouping there that could satisfy their needs.

And on that point I'd agree with them.

Now, thats not the answer some people are looking for, some people want a blow by blow account as to why each member who was in provisional movement left, not that all were in the provisional movement mind but that doesn't seem to register with people either.

What people have to realise is, the thing that unites people in eirigi is their determination to offer a contemporary republican socialist analysis and the fact that they view campaigns as a real way of demonstrating their politics.

What does not unite them, however, is their reasons for leaving any other group, particularly as not all of them were ever a member of 'the' group in the first place.

[boiler-1888]

Suspicions? Amongst who?

The reasons why eirigi was set up are clear. In fact, it has been clear to me since their inception, I think people must be very determined to think otherwise.

Eirigi was set up by people who no longer had a vehicle to pursue their politics. They believe in strong and clear republican socialism and think that it must take the form of credible activism.

They obviously didn't feel that there was another grouping there that could satisfy their needs.

And on that point I'd agree with them.

Now, thats not the answer some people are looking for, some people want a blow by blow account as to why each member who was in provisional movement left, not that all were in the provisional movement mind but that doesn't seem to register with people either.

What people have to realise is, the thing that unites people in eirigi is their determination to offer a contemporary republican socialist analysis and the fact that they view campaigns as a real way of demonstrating their politics.

What does not unite them, however, is their reasons for leaving any other group, particularly as not all of them were ever a member of 'the' group in the first place.
There is a strong suspicion amongst republican’s (I’m not speaking of my personal views or that of the 32csm) that eirgi is a Provo front.
Some of the things said are that they seem to have a lot of money for a new party 70,000 A2 glossy proclamations is a lot of money, new banners at every protest etc; they tip toe around republican groupings afraid to offend and they seem to be reluctant in attacking Provisional SF when the opportunity arises. They also find it difficult to explain why they parted from PSF. Some people believe that they were set up to harbour defections in a safe net that could offer no real challenge to the GFA.
Again this is not my personal view, sounds more of a conspiracy theory to me but the cat is out of the bag none of the less.

[Comrade Ryan]

There is a strong suspicion amongst republican’s (I’m not speaking of my personal views or that of the 32csm) that eirgi is a Provo front.
Some of the things said are that they seem to have a lot of money for a new party 70,000 A2 glossy proclamations is a lot of money, new banners at every protest etc; they tip toe around republican groupings afraid to offend and they seem to be reluctant in attacking Provisional SF when the opportunity arises. They also find it difficult to explain why they parted from PSF. Some people believe that they were set up to harbour defections in a safe net that could offer no real challenge to the GFA.
Again this is not my personal view, sounds more of a conspiracy theory to me but the cat is out of the bag none of the less.

:icon_lol:

The fools the fools...

This is a whole bunch of nothing weaved together to create nothing.

Anyone who believes that is a knave and not worthy of comment.

[conghaileach]

There is a strong suspicion amongst republican’s (I’m not speaking of my personal views or that of the 32csm) that eirgi is a Provo front.

That's nothing but cowardly ráiméis. Don't be hiding behind shadows. If there's anyone out there who really does think éirígí is a Provo front, let them speak up publicly themselves.

[conghaileach]

What is it with all of this hostility from members/supporters of the 32s? Even if some of them are hiding it behind a pleasant façade. Do they have a chip on their shoulder about éirígí (jealousy, maybe?) or do they really feel that éirígí owes them something? Jealousy or delusions of grandeur, then.

[boiler-1888]

Jealous of what exaclty? 32csm is clear in its calls for unity however eirgi has snubbed any such move for unknown reasons. I am glad that members of eirigi are not in Sf that makes our job alot easier but it would help eirgi alot if they clear up this nonsence with a answer.

Of course such claims are going to be made. However they should be cleared up asap. Not bolstered with silence.

[Comrade Ryan]

Jealous of what exaclty? 32csm is clear in its calls for unity however eirgi has snubbed any such move for unknown reasons. I am glad that members of eirigi are not in Sf that makes our job alot easier but it would help eirgi alot if they clear up this nonsence with a answer.

Of course such claims are going to be made. However they should be cleared up asap. Not bolstered with silence.

No the only thing bolstering them is the people carrying the lies in the first place.

Grow up.

I'm done 'debating' this idle lies and mischief making.

[peonyrose]

Suspicions? Amongst who?

The reasons why eirigi was set up are clear. In fact, it has been clear to me since their inception, I think people must be very determined to think otherwise.

Eirigi was set up by people who no longer had a vehicle to pursue their politics. They believe in strong and clear republican socialism and think that it must take the form of credible activism.

They obviously didn't feel that there was another grouping there that could satisfy their needs.

And on that point I'd agree with them.

Now, thats not the answer some people are looking for, some people want a blow by blow account as to why each member who was in provisional movement left, not that all were in the provisional movement mind but that doesn't seem to register with people either.

What people have to realise is, the thing that unites people in eirigi is their determination to offer a contemporary republican socialist analysis and the fact that they view campaigns as a real way of demonstrating their politics.

What does not unite them, however, is their reasons for leaving any other group, particularly as not all of them were ever a member of 'the' group in the first place.

All of these reasons seem reasonable to me. Why the fuss by other posters?

From my point of view, it is a pity to take progressive thinkers out of one (or more) political parties and set up an action group in an already fragmented environment.

But it is their right. For all we know, they feel great being out of their previous political involvements and in with a group of like-minded others. It may feel liberating rather than stultifying.

[Comrade Ryan]

All of these reasons seem reasonable to me. Why the fuss by other posters?

From my point of view, it is a pity to take progressive thinkers out of one (or more) political parties and set up an action group in an already fragmented environment.

But it is their right. For all we know, they feel great being out of their previous political involvements and in with a group of like-minded others. It may feel liberating rather than stultifying.

The other posters know the reasons, they are simply trying to undermine eirigi thats all. It won't work.

Whilst I'd love to see one movement, it hasn't been possible due to serious differences in ideology, principle, and tactic.

Many would feel, and I'd agree, that there is no value being in an org that you have fundamental disagreements with once you realise you can't turn it around.

All that can be acheived is the silencing of your opinion as no-one outside of the closed room knows there is another view point.

Connolly said it well when he said let's march seperately and strike together and when the day comes let the only competition be who strikes the most serious blows against the enemy.

Republicans today would do well to reflect on those sentiments.

[boiler-1888]

No the only thing bolstering them is the people carrying the lies in the first place.

Grow up.

I'm done 'debating' this idle lies and mischief making.
If they are lies rubbish them? No-one implied them as fact just that the suspicion was there.

32csm is clear about republican unity eirigi is not.


32csm has no problems with eirigi however eirigi has a problem with them. In a recent meeting in Derry they said they had a problem with cigarette smuggling and that is why they were not engaging with the 32csm.

These suspicions are there no matter what you call them, and it is up to eirigi as a political party to rubbish them. Eirigi has bolstered these suspicions by their silence and non-clarity.

If it is not eirigi strategy is to not engage with groups such as the 32csm IRSP and RSF then is it their strategy to attempt to outflank them?
Is eirigi attempting to rebuild the republican movement as an unarmed political party?

[peonyrose]

Many would feel, and I'd agree, that there is no value being in an org that you have fundamental disagreements with once you realise you can't turn it around.

All that can be acheived is the silencing of your opinion as no-one outside of the closed room knows there is another view point.

Connolly said it well when he said let's march seperately and strike together and when the day comes let the only competition be who strikes the most serious blows against the enemy.

Republicans today would do well to reflect on those sentiments.

Personally I have always taken the long term view (and worked on the numbers in the meantime).

But I think people know inside when it is time to go. And Connolly's striking together perspective is a helpful way of dealing with differences within the movement.

[Comrade Ryan]

If they are lies rubbish them? No-one implied them as fact just that the suspicion was there.

32csm is clear about republican unity eirigi is not.


32csm has no problems with eirigi however eirigi has a problem with them. In a recent meeting in Derry they said they had a problem with cigarette smuggling and that is why they were not engaging with the 32csm.

These suspicions are there no matter what you call them, and it is up to eirigi as a political party to rubbish them. Eirigi has bolstered these suspicions by their silence and non-clarity.

If it is not eirigi strategy is to not engage with groups such as the 32csm IRSP and RSF then is it their strategy to attempt to outflank them?
Is eirigi attempting to rebuild the republican movement as an unarmed political party?

I'm done with this nonsense and lies.

[boiler-1888]

I'm done with this nonsense and lies.
There is no lies just suspicion that needs to be cleared up by your party.

[Liam Lynch]

I'm done with this nonsense and lies.

Its a fair point that's raised though Comrade Ryan. Eirigi have no problem sitting down with a raft of other groups like in the Lisbon Campaign but they refuse to sit down let alone meet other republican organisations. Why is that?

[Carlos McJackle]

What is it with all of this hostility from members/supporters of the 32s?

I havent seen any hositility from 32 CSM members at all . I have certainly seen hostility from eirigi supporters directed towards attempts to elicit ansers on positions adopted by eirigi

[QUOTE] Even if some of them are hiding it behind a pleasant façade.

so its hidden hosility that looks pleasant instead of hostile ? Questions are hostile ?...mo chara ??

Do they have a chip on their shoulder about éirígí (jealousy, maybe?)

thats like something adams would come out with in reponse to a question from ourselves , no offence .

or do they really feel that éirígí owes them something? Jealousy or delusions of grandeur, then

I fail to see what eirigi could possibly owe to any republican except a polite answer to a polite question

Personally Im of the opinion diversity within republicanism should be a definite strength and was heartened from the outset at the groups appearance on the scene . What i was looking forward to was an embryonic republican unity project based upon seperatist ideals and a willingness to persue them by a group I believed capable of also addressing the issue .
However what I am beginning to get disheartened by regards eirigi is despite publicly calling for republican unity and democracy there seems to be a resolute posiition of non engagement with ourselves and others . Therefore I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the logic of that position is eirigi can only envisage and promote a republican unity project that seeks to exclude republican seperatists . Which is neither an exercise in unity or democracy . It is depressingly similar to a discredited republican unity project once envisaged by former IRSP spokesman , now retired , Gerry Ruddy .

Therefore in light of calls for unity alongside a simultaneous refusal to engage - a position which promotes exclusion - it is incumbent upon 32 csm members to seek to ascertain clairty as regards eirigis actual position because in my mind at least there is a growing contradiciton in evidence . One should not put forward a political position in the first place if one feels threatened or aggreived by simple questions about it . And if ones political practice is in direct contradiction to ones stated public position then that should be challenged in my opinion . That is basic 32 csm strategy - democracy.
Therefore Im glad questions are being asked of them in order to ascertain their position and attempt to clarify matters, that is how democratic politics should be persued .

[FTA69]

[QUOTE]There is a strong suspicion amongst republican’s (I’m not speaking of my personal views or that of the 32csm) that eirgi is a Provo front.

Not really, there is a suspiscion amongst a deluded minority of Republicans, I can understand this thinking when it related to éirigi first setting up, but the fact people are still peddling that nonsense two odd years down the line is simply ridiculous. Those people need to cop on to themselves.

Some of the things said are that they seem to have a lot of money for a new party 70,000 A2 glossy proclamations is a lot of money, new banners at every protest etc;

Éirigi is largely funded by its own members who each pay a weekly sum in to the group, to be honest that alone is heartening for the organisations' future as I have never seen people give such a financial commitment before in any organisation I've been in.

they seem to be reluctant in attacking Provisional SF when the opportunity arises.

People have been attacking the Provos for ten years, where has it got them?

[Liam Lynch]

But why is it you can sit down with these (http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/6) but not with republicans?

[FTA69]

But why is it you can sit down with these (http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/6) but not with republicans?

I'm only a supporter, I don't sit down with anyone.

[Liam Lynch]

I'm only a supporter, I don't sit down with anyone.

But surely you accept that it raises a question mark over intent and direction?

[RisenBelfast]

FTA,

While I know you are doing it for the best of reasons, I don't think you should be highlighting issues on how funds are raised within éirígí when all other parties keep many/most of their mechanisms hidden.

éirígí raises all it's funds by legitimate methods and that is that.

[RisenBelfast]

But why is it you can sit down with these (http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/6) but not with republicans?

The IRSP? What's your problem with them?

[boiler-1888]

The IRSP? What's your problem with them?
We have no problem with our RSM comrades do you?

[conghaileach]

The IRSP? What's your problem with them?
We have no problem with our RSM comrades do you?

If you'd have checked the page you linked to you'd have seen that the IRSP is an affiliate of the Campaign Against the EU Constitution.

[Comrade Ryan]

But why is it you can sit down with these (http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/6) but not with republicans?

Why don't you affiliate?

[belfast rep]

FTA,

While I know you are doing it for the best of reasons, I don't think you should be highlighting issues on how funds are raised within éirígí when all other parties keep many/most of their mechanisms hidden.

éirígí raises all it's funds by legitimate methods and that is that.


totally agree

[Liam Lynch]

Why don't you affiliate?

Because we sought an affiliation with other republicans to object to Lisbon citing Partition as cause. How many in that Lisbon Coalition reject the GFA?

[Comrade Ryan]

Because we sought an affiliation with other republicans to object to Lisbon citing Partition as cause. How many in that Lisbon Coalition reject the GFA?

That does not answer why you don't affiliate with this campaign.

[Liam Lynch]

That does not answer why you don't affiliate with this campaign.

It does, most clearly. A republican left coalition was much more desirable to promote a separatist agenda. Such a coalition would pay no heed to such arguments. For the majority of them the constitutional question is settled. Wouldn't you favour a republican left coalition to fight this treaty on issues pertinent to the republican left?

[RisenBelfast]

So you ruled out working with éirígí and the IRSP for your own reasons? Have either grouped banged on about it as if the sky was about to fall?

[Liam Lynch]

So you ruled out working with éirígí and the IRSP for your own reasons? Have either grouped banged on about it as if the sky was about to fall?

We haven't ruled out anything. We are working very closely with the IRSP in the Unity Initiative and others. eirigi refuse to respond to correspondence. Are they afraid of bad press or something if they are seen to be in contact with other republicans?

[RisenBelfast]

What? They work with the IRSP. In the coalition you wouldn't consider joining. Should éirígí and the IRSP take a strop as you have dismissed a project they are involved in? Should éirígí and IRSP supporters go on about your refusal to engage with a project they support for months and months and months?

[Liam Lynch]

What? They work with the IRSP. In the coalition you wouldn't consider joining. Should éirígí and the IRSP take a strop as you have dismissed a project they are involved in? Should éirígí and IRSP supporters go on about your refusal to engage with a project they support for months and months and months?

But why wont they? On what grounds should they not engage? Spell it out.

[RisenBelfast]

I don't why you didn't engage with the CAEUC which is supported by éirígí and the IRSP. I assume you have your own projects to be getting on with and didn't prioritise this one. Don't worry I'm not really concerned about you not being united with others against the EU Constitution, I accept your right to decide your own areas of focus.

[Liam Lynch]

I don't why you didn't engage with the CAEUC which is supported by éirígí and the IRSP. I assume you have your own projects to be getting on with and didn't prioritise this one. Don't worry I'm not really concerned about you not being united with others against the EU Constitution, I accept your right to decide your own areas of focus.

But eirigi have refused to meet us concerning any issue. The reason they gave was that they were not meeting anyone at this time. Apparently not.

[RisenBelfast]

I thought you said they didn't reply? I'm getting confused.

[Liam Lynch]

I thought you said they didn't reply? I'm getting confused.

They didn't reply to the correspondence. They were approached at the Bloody Sunday Commemoration and were asked for a meeting.

[RisenBelfast]

mmmm...........did the conversation not consist of slightly more than that? Did the demands of other projects come up or anything else?

Maybe, you got the report 2nd hand or reduced to the bare minimum of detail? I can't imagine any éirígí elected official being that curt.

[Liam Lynch]

mmmm...........did the conversation not consist of slightly more than that? Did the demands of other projects come up or anything else?

Maybe, you got the report 2nd hand or reduced to the bare minimum of detail? I can't imagine any éirígí elected official being that curt.

The conversation could have lasted all day but the outcome and the reasons for it remain the same. It was not discourteous or anything like that. The position stated was that they were not meeting anyone at the present time until they got their feet established. Fair enough, though a response to correspondence should have been forthcoming given our prompt response to the Proclamation initiative. Now, as you've posted, and as I read in the Irish News this morning, eirigi are now putting themselves forward as a republican alternative. How can that claim be made when they refuse to even engage with republicans who have faced do