The Normans

[fuisce mor]

Does anyone know what language the Normans spoke when the first arrived in Ireland? French, English, or another language?

[broche]

it was french, the royals in britain at the time were normans as well and they only spoke french too

[mac_talla]

Does anyone know what language the Normans spoke when the first arrived in Ireland? French, English, or another language?


http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/travelireland/gaeltachtstatistics.php

[congress3]

Intersting link there Mac Thanks.

[Cúchulainn]

it was french, the royals in britain at the time were normans as well and they only spoke french too

The Normans spoke a language that I have only ever heard called 'Norman French'. It's different from French, but certainly not English.

[mickyk200]

Would have been French when they first arrived but Normans such as Strongbow (yes Strongbow) who settled in Ulster would have learned Irish.

[Cúchulainn]

Would have been French when they first arrived but Normans such as Strongbow (yes Strongbow) who settled in Ulster would have learned Irish.

The Norman lords were descendents of Danish and Norse Vikings. I wouldn't call them French myself.

[mickyk200]

The Norman lords were descendents of Danish and Norse Vikings. I wouldn't call them French myself.
They came from Normandy in France, thus they would have spoke French.
Btw that's quite a racial statement. It would be like saying the childern of immigrants aren't Irish.

[croimaith]

They may have spoken Anglo-Norman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

[mickyk200]

They may have spoken Anglo-Norman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
That was after they settled in Ireland.
The Normans after they first came would have spoke French

[croimaith]

Maybe so. But don't forget they'd been in England for more than a hundred years before 1169.

[mickyk200]

Maybe so. But don't forget they'd been in England for more than a hundred years before 1169.
Aye when William the Conquer's quest of England made him the king of England after they first arrived in 1066.
Those Normans would have spoke French

[Seán1798]

Mostly Welsh and old English AFAIK the leaders spoke Anglo-Norman and as Norman influence receded in England so English became the language of the Lords and everybody who wanted to get on at the English court learned it. In the baronies of Forth and Bargy in County Wexford the Welsh/Old English dialect survived until very recently

The Hiberno Norman sounded like this

Hiberno-French

Song of Dermot and the Earl

1] Par soen demeine latimer
2] Que moi conta de lui l'estorie
3] Dunt faz ici la memorie.
4] Morice Regan iert celui,
5] Buche a buche parla a lui
6] Ki cest jest endita:
7] L'estorie de lui me mostra.
8] Icil Morice iert latimer
9] Al rei Dermot, ke mult l'out cher.
10] Ici lirrai del bacheler,
11] Del rei Dermod vus voil conter.

The common dialect of South Wexford sounded like this (it was a real mash up of languages.)

Song

Recited by Tobias Butler, 1823.

Aar was a clouk
Eee-marreet a slouck
Zing ug a mor fane a zour a ling.
Hea had no much wut,
An that was a fout
Zing, &c
Shoo zent him o' die
To maake a kuingokee
Zing, &c
A vursth stroke hea strooke
A bothom vele udh
Zing, &c
Duggès an kauddès coome lick up arhyme,
Hea took up a lounick, and knockt udh aar bryne
Zing, &c
Shoo zent him anoor die a gozleen to keep;
Hea shet his heade in a bushe, an vele aslepe
Zing, &c
A scalte croowe coome an taak aam awye,
An hea zet up a pouingaan an a cry


Zing, &c Sing 'Thugamar fèin a' samhradh linn'.

Just found this on teh intraweb

Following the Viking invasions in the 9c, DANISH and NORSE settlements were established in the east and south of the island. In this way, Germanic dialects began to affect Irish Gaelic, especially in commerce, dress, and seafaring. In 1155, the English Pope, Adrian IV, granted Henry II of England permission to invade Ireland and bring about religious reforms. The subsequent invasion launched from Wales, was a military success. The Treaty of Windsor suggests that, by 1175, half of Ireland was under Anglo-Norman control, and by 1250, almost three-quarters of the island had been divided into shires. The leaders of the invasion spoke French but the soldiers were Flemish, Welsh, and from southwest England. English was their LINGUA FRANCA and became established in all large settlements, especially in an area around DUBLIN known as the (English) Pale and in the Baronies of Forth and Bargy in Wexford.

[mickyk200]

I'd love to know how they learnt languages in those days...
There was no easy jet and no Hiberno-Norman for dummies...

[robertemmett]

I'd love to know how they learnt languages in those days...
There was no easy jet and no Hiberno-Norman for dummies...

they had those CD collections... "learn linga franca in 2 weeks" probably just stuck them on their ipods

[mickyk200]

they had those CD collections... "learn linga franca in 2 weeks" probably just stuck them on their ipods
RE don't be stupid!
They had mini-disc players...DUH!

[Cúchulainn]

They came from Normandy in France, thus they would have spoke French.
Btw that's quite a racial statement. It would be like saying the childern of immigrants aren't Irish.

Not at all. Of course the children of immigrants can be Irish, but the Norman lords were not French. The word 'Norman' is derivative from the Dutch word 'Noor', meaning Norweigan - these people were not French. The people they ruled (Franks, Gallo-Romans, Flemings) were, but people like Richard de Clare and John de Courcy weren't.

[Red Revolutionary]

Not at all. Of course the children of immigrants can be Irish, but the Norman lords were not French. The word 'Norman' is derivative from the Dutch word 'Noor', meaning Norweigan - these people were not French. The people they ruled (Franks, Gallo-Romans, Flemings) were, but people like Richard de Clare and John de Courcy weren't.

Why not?
Its a well known fact that the Vikings assimilated into the native populations where ever they settled/invaded.
This can be seen from Kiev to Byzantium to Sicily to Normandy.

[Seán1798]

Not at all. Of course the children of immigrants can be Irish, but the Norman lords were not French. The word 'Norman' is derivative from the Dutch word 'Noor', meaning Norweigan - these people were not French. The people they ruled (Franks, Gallo-Romans, Flemings) were, but people like Richard de Clare and John de Courcy weren't.

The Viking Rollo and his men were installed in Normandy by agreement with Charles the Simple to act as a bulwark against further Viking raids. The language they spoke was a mash up of langue d'oïl and the norse tounge. Right from the outset they were mixing and intermarrying with the locals. They dropped their pagan religion and converted to Holy Roman Catholicism. A pack of feudal pious bigots they spread their diseased mindset far and wide on the orders of their Pope. Genetically they were a mix of Scandanavian, Gallo-Roman and Frankish stock.

"Specially marked by cunning, despising their own inheritance in the hope of winning a greater, eager after both gain and dominion, given to imitation of all kinds, holding a certain mean between lavishness and greediness, that is, perhaps uniting, as they certainly did, these two seemingly opposite qualities. Their chief men were specially lavish through their desire of good report. They were, moreover, a race skillful in flattery, given to the study of eloquence, so that the very boys were orators, a race altogether unbridled unless held firmly down by the yoke of justice. They were enduring of toil, hunger, and cold whenever fortune laid it on them, given to hunting and hawking, delighting in the pleasure of horses, and of all the weapons and garb of war."

Goffredo Malaterra

[Cúchulainn]

The Viking Rollo and his men were installed in Normandy by agreement with Charles the Simple to act as a bulwark against further Viking raids. The language they spoke was a mash up of langue d'oïl and the norse tounge. Right from the outset they were mixing and intermarrying with the locals. They dropped their pagan religion and converted to Holy Roman Catholicism. A pack of feudal pious bigots they spread their diseased mindset far and wide on the orders of their Pope. Genetically they were a mix of Scandanavian, Gallo-Roman and Frankish stock.

"Specially marked by cunning, despising their own inheritance in the hope of winning a greater, eager after both gain and dominion, given to imitation of all kinds, holding a certain mean between lavishness and greediness, that is, perhaps uniting, as they certainly did, these two seemingly opposite qualities. Their chief men were specially lavish through their desire of good report. They were, moreover, a race skillful in flattery, given to the study of eloquence, so that the very boys were orators, a race altogether unbridled unless held firmly down by the yoke of justice. They were enduring of toil, hunger, and cold whenever fortune laid it on them, given to hunting and hawking, delighting in the pleasure of horses, and of all the weapons and garb of war."

Goffredo Malaterra

Maybe I am wrong, but I've never thought of the Norman lords as French - I always thought of them as, well, Normans, with French people (Franks and Gallo-Romans) serving them.

[CmObyrne]

I'd love to know how they learnt languages in those days...
There was no easy jet and no Hiberno-Norman for dummies...

Humans are fairly smart when adapting to new societies, language is a main barrier between immigrant and new society usually so necessity usually prioritises its development until immigrant is sufficient in language.