Was Develera right to contest the treaty by forse of arms ?

[Foyleview]

In light of some comparisons being drawn between the 1922 treaty and the agreement of 1998. Would De vilera, Lynch and aiken have acheived more if they had kept up the pressure with in the Dail and not went down the road of a bloody Civil war. Would the boundry comission have got away with so much ? would the volinters have been better supported and supplied ? would we have a united Ireland Now ? Is there lessons to be learned ?

my spelling is awful please excuse.

[scarface]

Eamon De Valera had nothing to do with the decision to continue the fight for the Republic in 1922-23 anyway he was murdering republicans soon enough afterwards. Frank Aiken proved himself for the scumbag that he was. Liam Lynch always acted according to his principles the other two didn't know the meaning of principles and LH can't help achieve a UI it has proven to be a formidable enemy of Irish republicanism over the years and it and Stormont always will be an enemy of republicans because both are desinged to protect the status quo and partition and all those who take their seats there are participating in the continuation of partition

[Seán1798]

If Dev had taken a bullet in the head at Bolands Mill in 1916 then we'd have UI by now IMO. When you put crypto-fascist ultra-Catholics in charge of anything you may watch your back.

[Jim]

In light of some comparisons being drawn between the 1922 treaty and the agreement of 1998. Would De vilera, Lynch and aiken have acheived more if they had kept up the pressure with in the Dail and not went down the road of a bloody Civil war. Would the boundry comission have got away with so much ? would the volinters have been better supported and supplied ? would we have a united Ireland Now ? Is there lessons to be learned ?

my spelling is awful please excuse.


did you not start a very similar thread on this recently?

And wouldnt it be better maybe to respond to my reply on that thread?

[MatthewTirEoghain]

unlikely?? lol strange option!

Im not tryin to be smart, or nasty, im honsestly unsure, is english your first language?

[Foyleview]

did you not start a very similar thread on this recently?

And wouldnt it be better maybe to respond to my reply on that thread?


repeat the question and i ll do my best

[Takeshi]

What the civil war did achieve was to create a division in Irish politics that has lasted ever since. There was no way of creating a UI, because FF and FG were too busy trying to fight each other instead of the Brits.

If the civil war had not happened, then Collins, Childers, Lynch and the many other patriots who needlessly died would have been still actively involved in politics and they would have insisted that partition be ended. I don't believe that Michael Collins would have been content to sit in LH while the Brits continued to occupy the north.

[mickyk200]

There's very few things that could be worse than the Civil War....

[Foyleview]

What the civil war did achieve was to create a division in Irish politics that has lasted ever since. There was no way of creating a UI, because FF and FG were too busy trying to fight each other instead of the Brits.

If the civil war had not happened, then Collins, Childers, Lynch and the many other patriots who needlessly died would have been still actively involved in politics and they would have insisted that partition be ended. I don't believe that Michael Collins would have been content to sit in LH while the Brits continued to occupy the north.

I think the same.
I see comparisons in the politics of today and the politics of the 20 s. The same thing is happening today. you have to much disunity and faction fighting within republicanism.
I beleive that most anti gfa people are destructive of the core republican goals by their policy of attacking and underminning Sinn FEIN . I think that they should get along with doing their own thing and trying to find common ground instead of adopting the smash sinn fein mantel from the d u p and doing the brits work for them.

[Jim]

I think the same.
I see comparisons in the politics of today and the politics of the 20 s. The same thing is happening today. you have to much disunity and faction fighting within republicanism.
I beleive that most anti gfa people are destructive of the core republican goals by their policy of attacking and underminning Sinn FEIN . I think that they should get along with doing their own thing and trying to find common ground instead of adopting the smash sinn fein mantel from the d u p and doing the brits work for them.

You'll find if you had any idea of republicanism or indeed history that it was the freestaters who started the civil war and today its the pro british camp that have been involved in death threats and beatings of republicans.

how are republicans undermining the provos?

[Vox Illuminati]

I think the same.
I see comparisons in the politics of today and the politics of the 20 s. The same thing is happening today. you have to much disunity and faction fighting within republicanism.
I beleive that most anti gfa people are destructive of the core republican goals by their policy of attacking and underminning Sinn FEIN . I think that they should get along with doing their own thing and trying to find common ground instead of adopting the smash sinn fein mantel from the d u p and doing the brits work for them.

Which of the core Republican goals were advanced by cosying up to George W Bush? Sinn Féin will have to deal with criticism for as long as it is painfully apparent that the emporer is bollocks naked.

[mickyk200]

You'll find if you had any idea of republicanism or indeed history that it was the freestaters who started the civil war
Surely that's a matter of opinion....
You could say the freestaters started it by ratifying the treaty and then on the other hand you could say the anti-treaty republicans started it by walking out of the Dáil...

[Jim]

Surely that's a matter of opinion....

Its a matter of fact.The freestaters began the civil war by shelling the four courts.


You could say the freestaters started it by ratifying the treaty and then on the other hand you could say the anti-treaty republicans started it by walking out of the Dáil...

The republican position was to uphold the republic declared and voted for by the people,the republicans who walked out were upholding what the people voted for and the mandate given to them.

There was problems with the whole treaty and the tactics used by republicans to counter it at the time which we are paying for now but the correct thing to do was reject the treaty no question.

[mickyk200]

Its a matter of fact.The freestaters began the civil war by shelling the four courts.
I totally agree with you mo chara, but I'm sure you can find someone to state something else as "fact".




The republican position was to uphold the republic declared and voted for by the people,the republicans who walked out were upholding what the people voted for and the mandate given to them.

There was problems with the whole treaty and the tactics used by republicans to counter it at the time which we are paying for now but the correct thing to do was reject the treaty no question.
Preaching to the choir

[MickCollins4ever]

Eamon De Valera had nothing to do with the decision to continue the fight for the Republic in 1922-23 anyway he was murdering republicans soon enough afterwards.

(...) the other two didn't know the meaning of principles

Absolutely true, in my opinion. But then, I admit I'm absolutely biased. Dev should have gone himself to London instead than staying cozy and then contest the treaty by force of arms because he didn't like it. And letting others pay the price, of course. I think he, with his expertise in machiavellism would have been a better match for the "Welsh Wizard" than Mick and company.

If Dev had taken a bullet in the head at Bolands Mill in 1916 then we'd have UI by now IMO. When you put crypto-fascist ultra-Catholics in charge of anything you may watch your back.

What can I say? As much as I despise violence, I can't help hating the man with all my my guts, so... :redface:

If the civil war had not happened, then Collins, Childers, Lynch and the many other patriots who needlessly died would have been still actively involved in politics and they would have insisted that partition be ended. I don't believe that Michael Collins would have been content to sit in LH while the Brits continued to occupy the north.

I absolutely agree with you. I think he would have fought them till the end. He and his Apostles, of course

[popacam]

Surely that's a matter of opinion....
You could say the freestaters started it by ratifying the treaty and then on the other hand you could say the anti-treaty republicans started it by walking out of the Dáil...

the old tactic of divide and conquer never failed england.the celtic mind all too often fights individually.

[Foyleview]

the old tactic of divide and conquer never failed england.the celtic mind all too often fights individually.
good no5 post

[popacam]

good no5 post

gotta start somewhere i 'bose:icon_lol:

[mickyk200]

the old tactic of divide and conquer never failed england.the celtic mind all too often fights individually.
Yes that's the problem with republicanism. We would be a more effective movement if we were not a series of splits.

[Foyleview]

Yes that's the problem with republicanism. We would be a more effective movement if we were not a series of splits.

yes...

[mickyk200]

yes...
Of course we shouldn't sacrifice our standards for the sake of unity...isn't that right Foyleview?

[Red Revolutionary]

yes...

Are PSF not a splinter group too?