Michael Collins

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Michael Collins (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader))
Michael Collins (Film) (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_%28film%29)
GeneralMichaelCollins.com (http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/pages/Michael_Collins.html)
Michael Collins (Biography) (http://www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm)
In his brief lifetime of 31 years, Michael Collins fought the British Empire to a stalemate, negotiated the first Treaty of Independence for Ireland and overseen its transition to democracy.
Michael John ("Mick") Collins (Irish: Mícheál Seán Ó Coileáin; 16 October 1890–22 August 1922) was an Irish revolutionary leader, Minister for Finance in the First Dáil of 1919, Director of Intelligence for the IRA, and member of the Irish delegation during the Anglo-Irish Treaty negotiations, both as Chairman of the Provisional Government and Commander-in-Chief of the National Army.

He was shot and killed in August 1922, during the Irish Civil War. Although most Irish political parties recognise his contribution to the foundation of the modern Irish state, members and supporters of the Fine Gael political party hold his memory in particular esteem, regarding him as their movement's founding father (even though his link to them was through their precursor Cumann na nGaedhael, a name adopted in 1923 by the pro-Treaty wing of Sinn Fein).

[MatthewTirEoghain]

He was a patsy

[lambhdeargh]

He was a patsy

Yet he still had more balls than you!

[lambhdeargh]

He was a patsy

Tell ya what, lets trade prison numbers!

[IrelandUnfree]

He failed to negotiate a proper Treaty and ended up creating the problem of partition which we are now left solving today. That said, he was a strong leader but could not cope with fighting former comrades and thus that weakened his ability to use the Free State as a stepping stone to complete unity. That and his untimely death created the problem we have today.

But I do have sympathy for him, as I do believe that, Dev being the snake he was sent Collins to bring back the bad news of partition with the Treaty rather than destroy his own career.

[lambhdeargh]

He failed to negotiate a proper Treaty and ended up creating the problem of partition which we are now left solving today. That said, he was a strong leader but could not cope with fighting former comrades and thus that weakened his ability to use the Free State as a stepping stone to complete unity. That and his untimely death created the problem we have today.

But I do have sympathy for him, as I do believe that, Dev being the snake he was sent Collins to bring back the bad news of partition with the Treaty rather than destroy his own career.

Dev insisted, that the most vague member of the army council, should spring forth and bring back disastrous news. Well that must have been a good idea!

[Hildy]

He was a patsy

MatthewTirEoghain, he was used and manipulated by de Valera.



lambhdeargh, a chara, I agree with you. After a conference was set for the Brit government and the leaders of the, as yet unrecognised Irish Republic......de Valera was so full of himself, that it was astonishing how he made the Dáil upgrade his office from Prime Minister to President of the Republic so he wouldn't have to attend the delegation. If King George V wasn't taking part in the negotiations — then neither should he as President of the Republic. Instead he sent Michael Collins to London as part of the delegation team, and MC went with misgivings. The rest is history, but that doesn't negate Michael Collins's passion for Irish freedom and doesn't extinguish his desire to see peace and unity for the country he so loved.

[VENCEREMOS32]

He was a Solider, not a negotiator, but a very good Solider. I do applaud his spirit and will power in the fight for freedom. That said, He left a mess with his Treaty that’s still unclean today. I know there were more involved in the whole charade and I do understand he and others were under pressure at the time. He and all concerned fouled the ball IMO. Let no Collins lovers take offence here, its my opinion only. I think we Irish are always inches away from completion but can never carry through to the end. Irish revolutionaries remind me of the Mayo football team.

[robertemmett]

MatthewTirEoghain, he was used and manipulated by de Valera.



lambhdeargh, a chara, I agree with you. After a conference was set for the Brit government and the leaders of the, as yet unrecognised Irish Republic......de Valera was so full of himself, that it was astonishing how he made the Dáil upgrade his office from Prime Minister to President of the Republic so he wouldn't have to attend the delegation. If King George V wasn't taking part in the negotiations — then neither should he as President of the Republic. Instead he sent Michael Collins to London as part of the delegation team, and MC went with misgivings. The rest is history, but that doesn't negate Michael Collins's passion for Irish freedom and doesn't extinguish his desire to see peace and unity for the country he so loved.


was he used and manipulated by DeV when he ordered the shelling of the four courts, with field artillery supplied by the british, did dev put him up to that?

[robertemmett]

He was a Solider, not a negotiator, but a very good Solider. I do applaud his spirit and will power in the fight for freedom. That said, He left a mess with his Treaty that’s still unclean today. I know there were more involved in the whole charade and I do understand he and others were under pressure at the time. He and all concerned fouled the ball IMO. Let no Collins lovers take offence here, its my opinion only. I think we Irish are always inches away from completion but can never carry through to the end. Irish revolutionaries remind me of the Mayo football team.

no, irish revolutionaries WILL eventually win.:icon_laugh::icon_laugh:

[VENCEREMOS32]

no, irish revolutionaries WILL eventually win.:icon_laugh::icon_laugh:

:icon_laugh: I was waiting for some smart ass to come in with that one. Maith an Fear! 50 years ago was the last time we won, we're waiting longer for a Republic and Mayo is cursed by the by... untill all the members on the last winning team is dead we wont win an All-Ireland, theres only two left! Our Day Will Come.....

[MatthewTirEoghain]

Yet he still had more balls than you!

Get a dictionary and look up the meaning of patsy....u fool!


MatthewTirEoghain, he was used and manipulated by de Valera.

You get a dictionary too!!

[lambhdeargh]

was he used and manipulated by DeV when he ordered the shelling of the four courts, with field artillery supplied by the british, did dev put him up to that?

Was he left with any choice? after negotiations had broken down and a blatent attempt at usurping athority in a fragile situation, a unfortunate decision was made to prevent futher occupation by the hated British. This was not the sellout that has been protrayed, but an attempt to localise the issue avoiding outside interferance. Unfortunately the Civil War did degenerate into the slaughter that was unwanted, but Dev did the deal and then reneged, but he always was an astute politition backing off when it suited and sounding tough when it was warranted!

[lambhdeargh]

Get a dictionary and look up the meaning of patsy....u fool!




You get a dictionary too!!

Want to call me a fool to my face?

[robertemmett]

Want to call me a fool to my face?

tut tut. violence and the implied threat of violence. we would forced to ring the cops!

[Hildy]

tut tut. violence and the implied threat of violence. we would forced to ring the cops!

Why robert, mo chara? Do you have them on speed dial? ;)

[robertemmett]

Why robert, mo chara? Do you have them on speed dial? ;)

will you be answering the phone?

[lambhdeargh]

tut tut. violence and the implied threat of violence. we would forced to ring the cops!

Calling someone a fool is a verbal slap in the face, I am curious, is this person capable of upholding this opinion in the face of those he ridicules? No violence implied, nor threatened, just an innocent question!

[mac_talla]

Michael Collins was flawed, as is every other human being, but I doubt any of us would turn down the opportunity to have history place our contributions to Ireland in the same league as his.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. It is so very easy to see the flaws in the plan from a distance of 80 plus years.

[lambhdeargh]

Michael Collins was flawed, as is every other human being, but I doubt any of us would turn down the opportunity to have history place our contributions to Ireland in the same league as his.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. It is so very easy to see the flaws in the plan from a distance of 80 plus years.

:eusa_clap: Just what I have been trying to get across to these armchair Republicans.:bow:

[robertemmett]

:eusa_clap: Just what I have been trying to get across to these armchair Republicans.:bow:

wow. i am in awe of you. you must stand at your computer. though do try a chair, they are comfortable whilst typing.

[mac_talla]

:eusa_clap: Just what I have been trying to get across to these armchair Republicans.:bow:


Go raibh maith agat, a lambhdeargh.

I would not be so quick to assume, however, that I know how active another poster is or is not. Many posters on this forum work very hard for the cause.

[lambhdeargh]

wow. i am in awe of you. you must stand at your computer. though do try a chair, they are comfortable whilst typing.

Well, it seems you think you are a wit, unfortunately for you, your only half right!

[robertemmett]

Well, it seems you think you are a wit, unfortunately for you, your only half right!

:eusa_clap: well done, action man

[lambhdeargh]

:eusa_clap: well done, action man

Nah, I have a big beer belly now, I have given up on the action man stuff, as last time I tried it, it landed me in the place with funny doors, that are hard to open.

[robertemmett]

michael collins didnt seem so concerned with the fragility of the situation when he ordered the assassination of Henry Wilson. hmm what did he expect the reaction of the british to be?

[Seán1798]

Want to call me a fool to my face?

Ah Matthew's only a young lad lambhdeargh

[lambhdeargh]

michael collins didnt seem so concerned with the fragility of the situation when he ordered the assassination of Henry Wilson. hmm what did he expect the reaction of the british to be?

As I have said before on this site, Collins armed the north whilst engaging the irregulars in a war that was unnessesary. Collins was a soldier, he fought as such and expected his foes to fight as such. It seems a pity for Irelands sake, that DeValera and his cronies found the will to allow more Irishmen to die for the same outcome and to allow the Irish question to fester rather than be decisively or indecisively be answered as to your political outlook.

[robertemmett]

As I have said before on this site, Collins armed the north whilst engaging the irregulars in a war that was unnessesary. Collins was a soldier, he fought as such and expected his foes to fight as such. It seems a pity for Irelands sake, that DeValera and his cronies found the will to allow more Irishmen to die for the same outcome and to allow the Irish question to fester rather than be decisively or indecisively be answered as to your political outlook.

so you would have been a pro treatyite..?

[lambhdeargh]

so you would have been a pro treatyite..?

I think Ireland would have been best served by a united front, rather than the splits that have beset concurrent movements. Ireland would or could have been United, but as we all know we all have 20/20 vision with hindsight depending on what history you read.

[lambhdeargh]

If Ireland had accepted the treaty, and if the Civil war was confined to the dustbin then I do believe that we would not be debating the unification of Ireland, as we would be unified. We would be debating what part in Europe we should play, but thats a different story.

[robertemmett]

I think Ireland would have been best served by a united front, rather than the splits that have beset concurrent movements. Ireland would or could have been United, but as we all know we all have 20/20 vision with hindsight depending on what history you read.

and evidently you mean a united front behind the treaty. and hindsight is perfect. very different thing to do at the time. but what it does is to say that those republicans from 1923 onwards (not dev's ff crew) wasted their entire time.

hersey to say this here... but sure no matter


wasnt it a god damn pity pearse and the 1916 men bothered with that fool rising. ireland would have been united today and mature enough to have left the commonwealth in 1969.

[lambhdeargh]

and evidently you mean a united front behind the treaty. and hindsight is perfect. very different thing to do at the time. but what it does is to say that those republicans from 1923 onwards (not dev's ff crew) wasted their entire time.

hersey to say this here... but sure no matter


wasnt it a god damn pity pearse and the 1916 men bothered with that fool rising. ireland would have been united today and mature enough to have left the commonwealth in 1969.

Mind you, if we were united the whole debacle of the treaty would be destined to the bin, but we make the best of what we have. It was always in Irelands intrest to push for independence and push we did, mostly it was with popular support, but the executions after 1916, did more for liberation than many rebellions prior to and after. We Irish are a fickel people and on the few occasions we had everyone (unionists excluded) singing from the same hymn sheet we fecked it all up. Mind you factional diversity was always our downfall.

[mullerice]

Michael Collins (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader))
Michael Collins (Film) (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_%28film%29)
GeneralMichaelCollins.com (http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/pages/Michael_Collins.html)
Michael Collins (Biography) (http://www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm)
In his brief lifetime of 31 years, Michael Collins fought the British Empire to a stalemate, negotiated the first Treaty of Independence for Ireland and overseen its transition to democracy.

Ok, I'm nitpicking again, but I can't let this one go. "Independence for Ireland " - I don't think so. Part of Ireland at best!

"transition to democracy":icon_laugh::icon_laugh: