18-Year-Old Black Youth Shot in the Back—Killed by Cops

[quirk]

http://www.rwor.org/i/098/aaron.jpg

On the evening of August 6, sometime around 8, the life of 18-year-old Aaron Harrison ended in an alley on Chicago’s west side. Shot by a police officer. Sandra Shannon, Aaron Harrison's aunt, told Revolution, “He was home for five days. He was on two years probation. He was scared. He was running for his life. Kids shouldn't have to fear for their life."

Shocked, stunned, outraged—hundreds of mostly young people from the North Lawndale neighborhood took to the streets. Dozens of squad cars blocked off streets around the area. Chicago authorites say that rocks and bottles were thrown at police. Chanting “no justice, no peace, no racist police,” people marched to the nearby police station. The police arrested five people and used mace. A photographer from the Chicago Tribune had two cameras broken by a cop.

Police officials claim that cops saw Aaron doing something suspicious with his waistband before they chased him. They insisted that Aaron was NOT shot in the back but in the shoulder, and that he was armed and pointing a gun at them. The police insisted on this even after the initial report from the medical examiner said that Aaron was shot in the back. The police claim that they recovered a 9mm weapon near Aaron's body. But "finding" a gun doesn't answer the more important question of its origins. A number of witnesses insist that they saw police officers take a bag from the trunk of a police car and leave a gun by Aaron's body.

The August 11 Chicago Sun-Times reported that Cook County Chief Medical Examiner Nancy Jones "confirmed" that Aaron Harrison was shot in his left shoulder, offering the explanation that their initial story that he was shot in the back actually referred to being shot in the top of the left shoulder, which is considered a part of the back. According to the article, Jones claimed that "the wound is consistent with what the officers are saying about the body being turned to them." Ashunda Harris, an aunt of Aaron Harrison, viewed Aaron's body in the morgue. She told Revolution that she saw the location of the bullet hole. It was in the upper left part of Aaron's back —not his front —and she disputes the medical examiner’s conclusions. And she told Revolution that numerous witnesses close to the shooting saw that Aaron was shot in the back, and they never saw any gun in Aaron's hand.

Chicago's Mayor Daley tried to deflect criticism of the police by saying that "everyone blames the police" and telling people to "withhold" their judgment. In other words, as Sandra Shannon put it, "shut up."

Aaron Harrison’s shooting is the third death linked to the hands of Chicago police in less than a month. On July 22, Lester "Roni" Struill was found dead in a police station lockup. According to witnesses, cops severely beat him before he was brought to the police station. On August 4, Gefery Johnson was pronounced dead at St. Bernard Hospital after police used pepper spray and two shots from a taser (which can deliver 50,000 volts of electric shock) on him. His family had called 911 when Gefery, who had a history of mental and substance abuse problems, had locked himself in a room. "They actually executed my child," said Gefery's mother, Lula Johnson. "They executed him."

In the days following the Aug. 6 shooting, Black community activists, some pastors, family members, neighborhood residents, and a growing number of supporters from around Chicago have protested and denounced the police killing of Aaron Harrison. There have been marches to the police station, rallies, press conferences, and a town hall meeting to defend witnesses.

At a protest on Aug. 7, Ashunda Harris, spoke powerfully about what the youth face, and the need to stop police brutality and murder: “I'm here about killer cops. I'm here because this has gone too far. [Aaron] is dead but it could have been anyone. There is a national epidemic of police brutality and WE have to stop it. It's not about 15 minutes of fighting. This is about the way we live everyday… You can't take people to jail and beat them up. You can't beat a confession out of people today and expect them to respect you tomorrow. What is going on out here is a violation of our youth. An attack, a rape of our young people. What they do EVERY DAY. This is a national epidemic.”

A woman who came to three days of protests of Aaron Harrison’s shooting said, “You can't keep seeing these things day after day. I came all the way from the south side. I don't even live out west, but I see police doing this every day. Throwing them up against the cars. Making them get on the ground. Look at all the love they scattered when they killed that boy. Look at all the people that are hurting because they scattered that love when they killed him.”

The shooting of Aaron Harrison, and the outbreak of protest that erupted in its wake, took place as the Chicago “city fathers” are trying to clean up the image of the Chicago police while contending to host the 2016 Olympics. After the widely publicized brutal beating of a Polish-immigrant bartender by an off-duty Chicago cop, the Chicago Sun-Times warned, “Chicago, be clear. The whole world is watching. From Mexico to Moscow, CNN has shown the international community the shameful videotape of off-duty Chicago Police Officer Anthony Abbate trying to beat the living daylights out of a female bartender less than half his size….” (Mar 28, 2007).

And Chicago’s bid for the Olympics has the specter of Jon Burge hanging over its head. For decades Burge ran a Chicago police torture chamber where electrodes were applied to the testicles of suspects, people were repeatedly suffocated with plastic bags and covers, and subjected to cattle prods. The city officially admitted that "an astounding pattern of torture" existed, and continue to defend Burge. Mayor Daley was the county state's attorney for many of the years when Burge and the Chicago PD were torturing people.

The city of Chicago sits on top of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of desperate people with no prospects for decent jobs, education, health care, or a life – a situation that is enforced daily and hourly by the police. Scandals or not, the Chicago police lashed out in the aftermath of the protests. Since the murder of Aaron Harrison, 13 young men have been arrested. According to Sandra Shannon, some were arrested as people were gathering for one of the protests. "Right now, they're trying to intimidate the community," said Ashunda Harris. She said that police are arresting "young men that can possibly identify or testify on some of the things taking place in the neighborhood. I think they're trying to discredit their character. If they're constantly locking them up, their credibility becomes less."

On Friday, Aug. 10, there was a protest rally and then 100 to 200 people, including some white and Latino youth, marched again to the police station behind a “Stolen Lives” banner listing the names of 400 people killed by police around the country.

Sandra Shannon spoke about the protests against the police killing of Aaron Harrison: "They thought it was just going to be another person gone and ain't nothing going to be done about it… If it don't stop, who's gonna be the next victim?" There is a need for people from all walks of life to join these protests, and demand an end to police brutality, repression, and the criminalization of a generation.

http://www.rwor.org/a/098/chicago-police-en.html

[quirk]

On October 22: No More Stolen Lives—Wear Black to Protest Police Brutality

From the Call for Oct. 22, 2007, National Day of Protest to Stop Police Brutality, Repression, and Criminalization of a Generation:

“October 22nd has come to be recognized as a concentrated day of resistance—a national day when people all over the country, in different cities and through different means of expression, come together to STOP police violence, repression, and the criminalization of a generation…”

Nicholas Heyward, Sr. (father of Nicholas Heyward, Jr., killed by NYC housing police in 1994) says:
“Police brutality has always existed in poor and oppressed neighborhoods. But since September 11, 2001, it has gotten much worse. In order for any justice to be done, it takes a mass number of people coming together for a common cause. Police brutality affects everyone and has to stop. We need as many people as possible to come out this year on October 22nd to support the families of victims of police brutality.”

Juanita Young (mother of Malcolm Ferguson, killed by NYPD in 2000) adds that resistance is critical:
“You can’t give in. They will try to make an example out of you, try to break your spirit. If you don’t resist and keep on fighting, they will be able to get away with what they’re trying to do to us.”

To contact the October 22nd Coalition to Stop Police Brutality, Repression, and Criminalization of a Generation:
www.october22.org/ info@october22.org 1-888-NOBRUTALITY October 22nd Coalition, P.O. Box 2627, New York, N.Y. 10009

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

A lot of things have changed in the last 50 years in America. At one time Blacks in America were very much victims of oppression. I don't think that can be said anymore. I believe that most of the oppression in black communities in America is done by the gang members who think nothing of killing black community activists who speak out against them.

American cops are ****ed when it comes to dealing with the Black Community. If they have too large a presence and are aggressive about ridding a neighborhood of gangmembers and other criminals they are called racists and accused of brutality. If they have too small a presence the Jesse Jackson's scream that white America doesn't care about the black community. So what are they really to do?

My stepmother is a teacher at a predominantly black high school. She has observed that if a black student takes their studies seriously they are often ridiculed by other black students and told they are acting "too white".

I'm not saying it was right of the cops to shoot this kid in the back. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of problems in the black community that could be solved if more black men and women took responsibility for themselves and for their families.

My family was treated like **** from the WASP's when they came here from Mexico and Portugal. So were the Irish. However most of us believe in taking responsibility for ourselves and our families. We believe in hardwork and last but not least we will carve out our own slice of pie when no one will give it to us. Many blacks in America think that slice of pie should be given to them. A way of thinking most Americans (especially immigrants and the sons of immigrants) detest.

[quirk]

I think that although connected in many ways there are two separate issues to be addressed here. The first is the cops and the second is the extent to which racism and the oppression of Blacks and other nationalities is or is not part of the system which is in place in the modern day united states.

The police force in the USA like any police force is an instrument of the state, tasked with upholding bourgeois "law and order" and to "protect and serve" the ruling class. The history of American cops speaks for itself from enforcing segregation, putting down rebellions such as that in L.A. in 1992 and right up to the present where only two years ago we saw them enforce private property rights in New Orleans preventing impoverished people from taking vital necessities from stores in the city and indeed threatening to shoot them if they did. People should never put their trust in a police force and try to apologise or make excuses for the brutal acts they carry out against working class people especially the most oppressed and vulnerable.

The second point and indeed the most important point which was raised in the article above has to do with racism and the extent to which it still exists in the US today. Despite your opinion that oppression no longer exists I believe that not only does it exist but even a brief examination of US society makes this oppression glareinly obvious.

I referred to New Orleans above as an example of the cops upholding bourgeois "law and order" but I also think that it was the most striking example of racism in the United States in the past few years. Remember how cops from the surrounding towns would not let black people come into these towns and forced them back across the bridge at gunpoint into a destroyed and uninhabitable city. Remember how the media falsified reports about the superdome, telling us that black gangs were gang raping white women and attacking white men. Reports that turned out to be untrue but of course were never apologised for. Do you think that any of this could have happened in a town which was predominantly white or even in the middle class white areas of New Orleans itself? I don't think that it could have.

On February 2nd the NYPD released statistics saying that they stopped and frisked 508,540 people in 2006 (although this is probably an underestimate as a 2003 report by US commission on civil rights said NYPD cops were only reporting one in every 30 stop and frisks). Of those stopped and frisked in 2006 55.2% were black and 30% were Latino. Less than 10% of all stops resulted in arrest. These statistics point to the fact that massive numbers of innocent people, mostly black are being stopped for no reason. People are being stopped because they are black. This is racism and oppression.

The infant mortality rate for black people in the US is almost two and a half times that of white people. Do you think that black children just die more often at birth and this is not related to other factors.

http://rwor.org/i/089/infantdeathchart1-en.jpg

Gangs are a serious problem in the community and are negative in an overall sense (although they have some positive aspects such as their defiance and realisation that the whole system is ****ed up, though their analysis is quite primitive) but to blame them on what is happening is beginning the story half way through. Gangs are a result of the problems within a symptom rather than a cause. The fact that for millions of youth in the inner cities gangs and crime is the best rational choice they can make is a massive indictment of the whole capitalist system. These are young people with dreams of a future, dreams like we all have though the sad truth that for the vast majority of them they will never be given the chance to realise these dreams. Before condemning the gangs you should first examine where they arose out of. Do you think black and Latinos are just naturally inclined towards gangs and violence whereas white people are not? And gangs have another purpose for the ruling class in that they channel the anger of the oppressed communities against themselves rather than at the real cause of their oppression.

All I'm saying is that there are a lot of problems in the black community that could be solved if more black men and women took responsibility for themselves and for their families.

Do you think that black parents care less for their families than white ones because thats what it seems like you are saying. I'm sure every mother wants whats best for her kids and will do everything within their power to provide this. Again your analysis is distorted in that you are blaming the oppressed for their oppression.

We believe in hardwork and last but not least we will carve out our own slice of pie when no one will give it to us. Many blacks in America think that slice of pie should be given to them. A way of thinking most Americans (especially immigrants and the sons of immigrants) detest.

Are not millions of black people out working multiple jobs every day to provide for their family? Do they not believe in hard work? Yet you imply they are not. Capitalism in the US can make more profit from giving jobs previously done by black people to others at a fraction of the wage. Many of the traditional industries have been moved out of the inner cities and over seas. The racist myth that black people are lazy is one that is promoted by the powers to be in order to divide the working class. And always remember that US imperialisms current power was built on the back of black slaves forced to work and endure all kinds of horrors. The following quote sums up in a perfect way the problem with what you are saying that if only if they worked harder their lives would be better.

Determination decides who makes it out of the ghetto—now there is a tired old cliché, at its worst, on every level. This is like looking at millions of people being put through a meatgrinder and instead of focusing on the fact that the great majority are chewed to pieces, concentrating instead on the few who slip through in one piece and then on top of it all, using this to say that “the meatgrinder works”!
Bob Avakian, "The 'City Game'--and The City, No Game," Revolutionary Worker, No. 201, April 15, 1983

My stepmother is a teacher at a predominantly black high school. She has observed that if a black student takes their studies seriously they are often ridiculed by other black students and told they are acting "too white".

I think that an inferiority complex is ingrained into these kids from a young age. Once again this is an effect of racism. Watch the following short video A Girl Like Me (http://www.revmedia.net/aglm.html) in which young black women talk about the pressures they face. But the interesting part was when an old experiment was recreated in which black children were given the choice of a black or white doll and in the vast majority of cases they choose the white one. When asked which was the bad doll they pointed to the black one. This was a perfect example of the inferiority complex that is bread into them through popular culture.

And if you still think rascism and oppression doesn't exsist take a quick look at another thread on this board dealing with the situation in Jena, Louisiana and the Jim Crow justice that is being given out there. LINK (http://irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2470)

[BunyipDude]

A lot of things have changed in the last 50 years in America. At one time Blacks in America were very much victims of oppression. I don't think that can be said anymore. I believe that most of the oppression in black communities in America is done by the gang members who think nothing of killing black community activists who speak out against them.

American cops are ****ed when it comes to dealing with the Black Community. If they have too large a presence and are aggressive about ridding a neighborhood of gangmembers and other criminals they are called racists and accused of brutality. If they have too small a presence the Jesse Jackson's scream that white America doesn't care about the black community. So what are they really to do?

My stepmother is a teacher at a predominantly black high school. She has observed that if a black student takes their studies seriously they are often ridiculed by other black students and told they are acting "too white".

I'm not saying it was right of the cops to shoot this kid in the back. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of problems in the black community that could be solved if more black men and women took responsibility for themselves and for their families.

My family was treated like **** from the WASP's when they came here from Mexico and Portugal. So were the Irish. However most of us believe in taking responsibility for ourselves and our families. We believe in hardwork and last but not least we will carve out our own slice of pie when no one will give it to us. Many blacks in America think that slice of pie should be given to them. A way of thinking most Americans (especially immigrants and the sons of immigrants) detest.

So why are you an Irish Republican?

[Seabird]

Buny,

He didn't say he was, sounds as if his heritage is hispanic and portugese.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

So why are you an Irish Republican?

I suppose I can't be an Irish Republican but I'd definitely be considered an American sympathizer. I have many friends from Ireland. Many from the Occupied 6 counties. In spirit and sometimes in donations I support the cause of a Soveriegn 32 County Irish Republic.

As for what I wrote. I don't have all praise for the police in America, but I do know that there are black neighborhoods here in the States that no white or even brown man enters unless they want to buy drugs. The reason being is if your a man you'll be beaten and robbed as many friends of mine have been or if your a woman you'll be raped. This isn't racist fiction this is fact. When the cops are sent in to try to clean up the neighborhood they're called racist. That's how it is here.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

From my own experience some of the biggest supporters of the Irish Republican movement have been Irish-American policemen. Especially here in San Francisco. Also the SFPD is always accused of being racist towards the black community here. I won't deny that they're usually rougher with the black community, but at the same time most cops it's hard not to be rough in a community where gang members and drug dealers have all the power. Those in the black community who try to work with the cops to stop the crime are intimidated or murdered. Community activists in black neighborhoods are routinely killed for trying to better their communities. It's just a bad situation and until the urban street culture changes it's only going to get worse.

[Seabird]

quirk,

Native American's have the highest infant mortality than any other race in this nation at 15.8 per 1000 with blacks at 6.8 under the whites. I did a study on this for talks on Native American issues, I will get you my references later. . . am off to work now!

[quirk]

The table above which I posted is from the national center for health statistics, a government agency which seems to be the main source of such statistics. I have done a quick search and found other documents and sources which back up this claim.

An article in Medical news today entitled Overall Infant Mortality Rate In USA Largely Unchanged: Rates Among Black Women More Than Twice That Of White Women (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/70207.php) gives the infant mortality rates as follows:

Black (13.6)
American Indian (8.45)
Puerto Rican (7.82)
Mexican (5.47)
White (5.66)
Asian/Pacific Islander (4.67)
Central/South American (4.65)
Cuban (4.55)

The national average is 6.78.

Here is another supporting article on www.healthfinder.gov (http://www.healthfinder.gov/news/newsstory.asp?docID=604276)

[broche]

Cuban (4.55)




excellent cuban healthcare

[quirk]

That statistic is for cubans living witin the USA however I have no doubt that the excellent healthcare that many recieved in Cuba before emigrating has meant that less mothers have babies which are unhealthy.

[BunyipDude]

I suppose I can't be an Irish Republican but I'd definitely be considered an American sympathizer. I have many friends from Ireland. Many from the Occupied 6 counties. In spirit and sometimes in donations I support the cause of a Soveriegn 32 County Irish Republic.

As for what I wrote. I don't have all praise for the police in America, but I do know that there are black neighborhoods here in the States that no white or even brown man enters unless they want to buy drugs. The reason being is if your a man you'll be beaten and robbed as many friends of mine have been or if your a woman you'll be raped. This isn't racist fiction this is fact. When the cops are sent in to try to clean up the neighborhood they're called racist. That's how it is here.

And that kind of stuff doesn't happen in Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods in Belfast? There aren't Protestants murdering Catholics just for being Catholic, and vice-versa? You also act as if the IRA and the Loyalists didn't control neighborhoods in Belfast and Derry and then intimidate their communities into not cooperating with the RUC during the Troubles. And when the security forces went in to keep the peace (from their perspective), they were being shot at and accused of sectarianism. RUC/PSNI and the Catholic community have the same sort of relationship with each other that blacks and Latinos in Los Angeles have with the LAPD. And the blacks' accusations of the LAPD's "racism" have about as much validity as the Catholics' accusations of the security forces' "sectarianism". Don't you see the parallels here? I don't see how you can show support for one police force and disdain for another.

As for your comment about Irish-American policemen, the only thing that proves is how ignorant they are. Lots of Irish-Americans want to be considered both conservative, patriotic Americans and Irish Republicans without understanding that American Republicanism and Irish Republicanism are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

[quirk]

I think the LAPD showed their true colours this past mayday when for no reason at all they brutally attacked an immigrants rights march. They even attacked a cameraman for FOX news for filming it.

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/070502/nn_alexander_rallies_070502.300w.jpg

If a person helps out a national liberation struggle in any way it is a posistive thing but as BunyipDude pointed out there is a contradiction here and they still are part of a force who duty it is to protect the status quo and hold the masses of people down.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

And that kind of stuff doesn't happen in Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods in Belfast? There aren't Protestants murdering Catholics just for being Catholic, and vice-versa? You also act as if the IRA and the Loyalists didn't control neighborhoods in Belfast and Derry and then intimidate their communities into not cooperating with the RUC during the Troubles. And when the security forces went in to keep the peace (from their perspective), they were being shot at and accused of sectarianism. RUC/PSNI and the Catholic community have the same sort of relationship with each other that blacks and Latinos in Los Angeles have with the LAPD. And the blacks' accusations of the LAPD's "racism" have about as much validity as the Catholics' accusations of the security forces' "sectarianism". Don't you see the parallels here? I don't see how you can show support for one police force and disdain for another.

As for your comment about Irish-American policemen, the only thing that proves is how ignorant they are. Lots of Irish-Americans want to be considered both conservative, patriotic Americans and Irish Republicans without understanding that American Republicanism and Irish Republicanism are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Irish-Catholic Americans traditionally vote Democrat. Yes they are conservative on social issues as are many of your countrymen. I don't know very many Irish Americans who vote American Republican. I myself am not an American Republican. I'm not a socialist but I have no problem with a mild implementation of socialism (as opposed to an authoriatarian implementation of socialism).

Have you been to the States? I can assure you that the black community of today is not what it was during the Civil Rights Movement which inspired many Irish Republicans. If you equate your fellow Irish Republicans with blood thirsty gang members and drug dealers in black neighborhoods then I don't think your doing a service to the Irish Republican cause. Some of my union brothers are from these neighborhoods (yes they are black as well) and they're afraid to go out at night. In their own neighborhood! Because of some of their own people. I've never been to Belfast but I am sure a Catholic in Belfast never was afraid to walk his own neighborhood because of his own people (unless he was an informant of course.)

[BunyipDude]

Irish-Catholic Americans traditionally vote Democrat. Yes they are conservative on social issues as are many of your countrymen. I don't know very many Irish Americans who vote American Republican. I myself am not an American Republican. I'm not a socialist but I have no problem with a mild implementation of socialism (as opposed to an authoriatarian implementation of socialism).

Have you been to the States? I can assure you that the black community of today is not what it was during the Civil Rights Movement which inspired many Irish Republicans. If you equate your fellow Irish Republicans with blood thirsty gang members and drug dealers in black neighborhoods then I don't think your doing a service to the Irish Republican cause. Some of my union brothers are from these neighborhoods (yes they are black as well) and they're afraid to go out at night. In their own neighborhood! Because of some of their own people. I've never been to Belfast but I am sure a Catholic in Belfast never was afraid to walk his own neighborhood because of his own people (unless he was an informant of course.)

"My countrymen"? Look at my location (visible right under the picture of Derek Thompson). I'm an American with some Irish blood (though I'm mostly of Italian descent). I also do not consider myself an Irish Republican (at least, not a physical-force Republican). On the other hand, I have never thought of the average Irish Catholic as being "socially" conservative except in regards to abortion.

Your characterization of gangs as "blood thirsty" is a bit misguided, I'm afraid. While I do not consider the Crips or MS-13 to be comparable to the IRA (they are not, after all, political in their ultimate motives), I don't think the way you demonize gang members is appropriate at all. It sounds to me as though you're basing your knowledge more upon what you hear in "gangsta" rap music than on reality. More often than not, gangs start out the same way as the Provos started out in '69 - they are founded by youth who seek to defend their neighborhoods and themselves. Furthermore, it's long been proven that in nearly every gang, individual gang members who commit felony acts are acting on behalf of themselves, even though their crimes are usually blamed on the entire gang. On average, the crimes typically associated with gangs (shootings, drug-dealing, beatings, etc.) are carried out by the "hardcore" elements, who are usually constitute at most 10% of the entire gang. Is this really any different than the IRA?

I don't know how many IRA volunteers have been involved in crime, but we all know that volunteers have been involved in various mafia-type activities, including smuggling, protection rackets, and crimes against Protestants that were not politically motivated. Not to mention the INLA - which became essentially a criminal organization by the 80s. Does it not strike you as odd that many Catholic mothers in Belfast seem to have the same attitudes towards IRA membership that black mothers in Watts have towards Crip membership? There are many people who think of paramilitary groups as being akin to gangs - I've already pointed out one author who has called the IRA and the ETA "little ethnic gangs - like Crips for white guys with a grudge and too much time on their hands."

I was also responding mostly to your last comment, where you displayed a somewhat racist attitude by accusing blacks of being lazy and praising the Irish for good work ethic. That would sound valid if it weren't for the fact that Republican organizations are more often than not just as left-wing as the blacks - they want, after all, to build a Democratic Socialist Republic of Ireland in which the Catholics will be redressed for perceived wrongdoings of the past. I think you are somewhat justified in saying that blacks are no longer being truly oppressed in America today as they were 40-50 years ago - problem is, are the Irish Catholics anymore? In the 1960s and 1970s, I think they could claim they were, but today, that claim seems much less valid in the post-GFA era (which is not to say I approve fully of the GFA).

The point I'm making is that your critiques of the black community in general (not just the gangs) are highly inappropriate because from my perspective, the Irish Catholics' situation mirrors theirs almost perfectly.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

8 months ago my godbrother (who I grew up with) was shot in the back of the head. His friend Manny tried to flee the assailants but they gunned him down too. Given my godbrother and Manny were in the marijuana business, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they brutally murdered by two aspiring black hoods who they had actually taken into their organization and were teaching them the business. Yes I know they're bloodthirsty and you can call me racist you can call me whatever you want. That's not the first time my family has been the victim of black violence. Enough with the politically correct bull**** the fact is that the black community has to take responsibility for **** like this. Until then they will get no sympathy from me.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

VALLEJO: VALLEJO MURDER SUSPECT ARRESTED IN LODI
03/09/07 2:10 PST
VALLEJO (BCN)

Vallejo police said today a second suspect has been arrested for the murders of two men in their Neptunes Court home on Jan. 17.

Sgt. Vic Massenkoff said Alphonso Wilson Jr., 18, was arrested without incident at 6 p.m. Thursday in Lodi by the San Joaquin County Sheriff's Office. He is suspected of killing 35-year-old James Werder and 27-year-old Manuel Caldera Jr.

The other suspect in the double homicide, Charles Doran Camper, 18, of Vallejo, was found fatally shot on Feb. 24 in the area of state Highway 4 and Bacon Island Road in Holt. The San Joaquin County Sheriff's Office is investigating his death.

Massenkoff said Wilson's parents, Alphonso Wilson Sr., 39, and Lashanna McDaniel, 37, were arrested today by Vallejo police in front of their Martinez home. They are suspected of helping their son evade arrest, Massenkoff said.

Investigators said the parents were in frequent contact with their son since the murders, traveled to Washington and helped him to return to California, where Wilson sought refuge in Lodi, Massenkoff said.

[quirk]

VALLEJO: VALLEJO MURDER SUSPECT ARRESTED IN LODI
03/09/07 2:10 PST
VALLEJO (BCN)

Vallejo police said today a second suspect has been arrested for the murders of two men in their Neptunes Court home on Jan. 17.

Sgt. Vic Massenkoff said Alphonso Wilson Jr., 18, was arrested without incident at 6 p.m. Thursday in Lodi by the San Joaquin County Sheriff's Office. He is suspected of killing 35-year-old James Werder and 27-year-old Manuel Caldera Jr.

The other suspect in the double homicide, Charles Doran Camper, 18, of Vallejo, was found fatally shot on Feb. 24 in the area of state Highway 4 and Bacon Island Road in Holt. The San Joaquin County Sheriff's Office is investigating his death.

Massenkoff said Wilson's parents, Alphonso Wilson Sr., 39, and Lashanna McDaniel, 37, were arrested today by Vallejo police in front of their Martinez home. They are suspected of helping their son evade arrest, Massenkoff said.

Investigators said the parents were in frequent contact with their son since the murders, traveled to Washington and helped him to return to California, where Wilson sought refuge in Lodi, Massenkoff said.

What has this got to do with anything?

[BunyipDude]

8 months ago my godbrother (who I grew up with) was shot in the back of the head. His friend Manny tried to flee the assailants but they gunned him down too. Given my godbrother and Manny were in the marijuana business, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they brutally murdered by two aspiring black hoods who they had actually taken into their organization and were teaching them the business. Yes I know they're bloodthirsty and you can call me racist you can call me whatever you want. That's not the first time my family has been the victim of black violence. Enough with the politically correct bull**** the fact is that the black community has to take responsibility for **** like this. Until then they will get no sympathy from me.

The "black community" sure as hell does not have to take responsibility for your god brother being involved in a criminal enterprise. And "they" don't have to take responsibility for the actions of individuals. YOU get no sympathy from me (not that I imagine you expected any to begin with).

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

The "black community" sure as hell does not have to take responsibility for your god brother being involved in a criminal enterprise. And "they" don't have to take responsibility for the actions of individuals. YOU get no sympathy from me (not that I imagine you expected any to begin with).

I never expected sympathy. The fact that my god brother was involved in marijuana dealing doesn't water down my point though. There is a right way and a wrong way to be a criminal. My god brother never hurt anyone. He'd defend himself and his family but he'd never hurt anyone for money.

I bring up my god brother because you didn't think I had any real experience with violence related with the black community. I realize that there are good people in that community too, but I know for a fact that there is also an abundance of bloodthirsty thugs in that community. One's who are living out their BET music video wet dream.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

And they do have to take responsibility BunyipDude. If their own community goes to hell it's because the culture of that community allows it to do so. The fact is that most murders in the "Black Community" are black on black crime. 90%. It's in their own interest to take responsibility for this and police their "own". Until they police their own they will get the heavy handed cops from the SFPD or Chicago PD or NYPD policing their neighborhoods for them and cracking heads as they are known to do. So instead of attacking the cops they should attack the thugs that bring the cops to the neighborhood. These gangsters aren't "Freedom Fighters" by any means of the imagination. They'd laught at you if you called them "Freedom Fighters". They're proud of being gangsters and because they have this image to keep their even proud of doing the very things that destroy the black community. Sometimes it's not an economic problem sometimes it's a cultural one.

[quirk]

The culture which is promoted in the black community is capitalist culture mainly promoted by white men in suits because it makes them money.

[BunyipDude]

These gangsters aren't "Freedom Fighters" by any means of the imagination. They'd laught at you if you called them "Freedom Fighters".

For ****'s sake, I never said they were. I simply said that a number of Republicans in the Six Counties are basically common criminals masquerading as "Freedom Fighters".

You sound just like Edward Norton's character in "American History X". I have zero respect your beliefs. You do not have any more right to claim that the black community is responsible for your godbrother's death any more than the families of the Omagh victims have the right to claim the Catholic community is responsible for their loved ones' deaths.

The culture which is promoted in the black community is capitalist culture mainly promoted by white men in suits because it makes them money.

That is true. 80% of the people who buy "gangsta" rap CDs are white kids. The whole "gangsta" culture was never really widespread in either the black community or America in general before the music industry decided to exploit it for the "shock value". Although it is encouraging to see that hip-hop sales have been declining immensely the past 2 years...looks like this stupid trend is finally burning itself out.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

You must misunderstand me. I don't blame the black community for the murder of my god brother. To a certain degree he did dig his own grave. However the mentality of those who murdered my god brother James Werder and his friend Manny is the same mentality that's destroying black neighborhoods across the United States. Quirk is right to a certain degree. The popular culture of the Black Community here is a "Capitalist Culture". It's a culture based purely on achieving and maintaining status which is weighed in material things and fast women who are attracted to the man of status with those material things. Then there's the violence that goes with the reputation needed to gaining and maintaining that status or respect.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

When I speak of community responsibility the IRA comes to mind. The IRA policed their own neighborhoods during the troubles. They punished criminals who preyed upon their own community.

These gangsters in the black community do nothing BUT prey upon their own community. You don't see a philanthropic side to these fellas. When I say the black community should take responsibility for this criminal culture I'm saying they must take back their own communities from the criminals. Since when is that a bad idea? There's those on the left and right of the political spectrum who don't want to see the black community really take charge of their own community and bring order to the chaos created by the drug trade and the gang culture. If blacks were to become successful the Left would lose a group of "victims" to champion and the Right would lose their reasons to tear down black neighborhoods to build Yuppie condo's.

[quirk]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a god brother?

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

It's my godfather's son.

[quirk]

Ok thanks. Just dont think we use that term here in Ireland.

[John]

No excuse for getting shot in the back unless someone is in my house and didn't realize I got in behind them. Just kidding...I would at least turn them around. The police were out on that one. I've been on the wrong side of the baton when I was a teenager for no reason just a tough guy with a badge and serious mental problems.
As for the area make up guess I'm lucky in that I grew up in a racially mixed neighborhood and never saw the difference between people, birth does not decide that which I would judge someone by. The areas where it is not safe in the US? Yes I know them and not too far from my door either, hell I've worked in plenty of areas that required police escort during daylight hours. Same streets of the 67 Newark,NJ riots and sentiment is still there in some people. The problem then was clear-cut racism and now it is a **** hole on the face of the earth where there are abandoned buildings and cars scattered all over the residential areas. Yet the downtown is blotted with new corporate buildings blocking out the skyline and limos. Capitalism is not working.
So let's see, I can agree the community is responsible for cleaning up their own (drug dealers,etc.) to a good degree and no I am not opposed to warnings first and then have them looking for a good knee replacement surgeon if they continue. As for the healthy ones who just refuse to help themselves I believe there is a good answer for that too..."From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Capitalism is not working.
I loved it when guys I work with talked about certain immigrants who live together in one house and how that is similar to animals. Then comes the fading laugh when I described how my own family all did the same thing. Yeah those damn Irish, right guys? How quick some forget they are not that f'n elite by birth after all. Who gives a ****e what you were born...sorry I could care less. Out there is a person (insert race of choice) being exploited right now and it it is usually for furthering someone else's (insert same race or another of choice) wealth or sick fantasy.
Well I'm rambling now....the police were wrong and stand up for yourselves because few others would consider doing it for you.

[BunyipDude]

You must misunderstand me. I don't blame the black community for the murder of my god brother. To a certain degree he did dig his own grave. However the mentality of those who murdered my god brother James Werder and his friend Manny is the same mentality that's destroying black neighborhoods across the United States. Quirk is right to a certain degree. The popular culture of the Black Community here is a "Capitalist Culture". It's a culture based purely on achieving and maintaining status which is weighed in material things and fast women who are attracted to the man of status with those material things. Then there's the violence that goes with the reputation needed to gaining and maintaining that status or respect.

The problem is, I've already mentioned that white kids represent 80% of those who buy "gangsta" rap CDs. The music industry puts out this music to appease us (and yes, I do mean "us"), not the black kids. So in other words, the "white community" (if that even exists) has embraced this "mentality" just as much as the black community. But you don't have an epidemic of white-on-white violence, white kids carrying around guns and selling drugs, do you? The reason for that is because, unlike the average white kid, black youth in inner-city neighborhoods are poor and desperate and lack proper role models. It's been this way for many years now (the Crips and Bloods both started in the 70s, long before there was any gangsta rap, or ANY kind of rap music.

I think the "gangsta" culture is a deplorable one and has done more harm than good, without doubt, but this whole deal of trying to blame it for the problems in the black community is ignoring larger issues.

When I speak of community responsibility the IRA comes to mind. The IRA policed their own neighborhoods during the troubles. They punished criminals who preyed upon their own community.

See, here you go again giving the PIRA a free pass just because they have a "cause" to justify their violence. Unfortunately for you, it's FAR from that simple. First of all, the Provos' punishment beatings of criminals seem hypocritical nowadays given that we now know involved they were in organized crime. The man who's currently believed to be the PIRA's chief of staff, "Slab" Murphy, is a notorious crime lord who's built a mini-empire and a personal worth of USD 70 million from smuggling, racketeering, and other such activities.
Second, the IRA's "policing" also involved intimidating people not to cooperate with the RUC or the British Army, which is of course terrorism.

These gangsters in the black community do nothing BUT prey upon their own community. You don't see a philanthropic side to these fellas.

I don't think there's much of a "philanthropic" side to the average PIRA volunteer either, unless by that you mean blindly chanting "up the 'RA!" and "Brits out!" ad nauseum. Like most Americans, you seem to have this romanticized view that every IRA volunteer was like Bobby Sands. But the fact is, Catholic youth joined the IRA for all sorts of reasons, some of which are hardly "political" in nature. In the 70s, most youth were joining the IRA to protect their neighborhoods only. Fair enough. But some also joined because it was the simplest way to get ahold of a gun, and then they could kill somebody they felt had wronged them (namely, Prods or Brits) or even get involved in anti-social activities themselves. Do you really think that absolutely everyone who fought in the Provos' "war" was emotionally and intellectually wedded to the "dream" of a United Ireland?

Gangs, as I have said, are obviously destructive organizations. There's no doubt about that. But you think that because the "gangstas" that killed you god brother were ruthless, you seem to believe that ALL black kids in America who join gangs do so because they're blood thirsty and they want to make money. The fact is, being a gangbanger is NOT a high-paying job at all (there's a huge difference between "banging" and trying to become a mafioso-type figure, which is how many of today's rappers portray themselves). Black youth more often than not join the Crips or the Bloods for very similar reasons to the Catholic youth in Northern Ireland who join the IRA or other Republican organizations: they want to feel protected (since they live in 'hoods that are already dangerous), they may have a grudge against a rival "hood" whose gang-members have made their own neighborhoods unsafe, and they want a sense of belonging. The problem, of course, is that they're only making things worse in their communities by getting involved.

Also, these bangers who killed your godbrother...what set were they claiming?

If blacks were to become successful the Left would lose a group of "victims" to champion and the Right would lose their reasons to tear down black neighborhoods to build Yuppie condo's.

You ARE essentially the "right". I don't consider blacks to be "victims"; there is no simple solution that involves throwing money at them. But I think the mentality you have is one rooted in ignorance and emotion rather than a reasoned analysis of the problems.

[Poncho]

As a black american male, I must say most of you white folks have no ****ing clue what your talking about. Honestly I know you irish guys have good intentions, and while you may feel we are oppressed, its not the case.


I grew up on crenshaw blvd, my familly was so poor we went 14 months with out power. Ive never sold or done drugs, yet everyone I grew up with is a waste of oxygen. The only thing holding the black man back on the west coast, is the black man.

My old hood is full of lazy bums, who would rather rob and kill then work PEROID. I make over 90k a year with blue collar job that took nothing more then a high school education. If I can doit so can they.

Ive seen people killed for the pair of shoes they were wearing, or for not being black enough. You can blame the problems there on what ever you want, the fact is, it comes from this "the white man owes me" mentality that is ****ing up everything, its created a generation of lazy people who want the easy life without putting in any effort.

I do wish my grandmother would have had more goverment income(disabled, its the same for people of all color's) But I know I turned out the way i did, because I raised by a strong woman not afraid to get her hands dirty.

[BunyipDude]

As a black american male, I must say most of you white folks have no ****ing clue what your talking about. Honestly I know you irish guys have good intentions, and while you may feel we are oppressed, its not the case.


I grew up on crenshaw blvd, my familly was so poor we went 14 months with out power. Ive never sold or done drugs, yet everyone I grew up with is a waste of oxygen. The only thing holding the black man back on the west coast, is the black man.

My old hood is full of lazy bums, who would rather rob and kill then work PEROID. I make over 90k a year with blue collar job that took nothing more then a high school education. If I can doit so can they.

Ive seen people killed for the pair of shoes they were wearing, or for not being black enough. You can blame the problems there on what ever you want, the fact is, it comes from this "the white man owes me" mentality that is ****ing up everything, its created a generation of lazy people who want the easy life without putting in any effort.

I do wish my grandmother would have had more goverment income(disabled, its the same for people of all color's) But I know I turned out the way i did, because I raised by a strong woman not afraid to get her hands dirty.

I'm not Irish, I'm Italian.

Your self-proclaimed "credibility" does not change my opinion. Actually, I have the same attitude towards folks like yourself that I have towards my grandparents (who are also ultra-conservative and came up the hard way just as you claim you did) - I find it rather disaffecting. I don't like the arrogance of people like yourself who believe, "If I did, so should everybody else."

I'm also really curious to know what a black dude like yourself is doing supporting the more reactionary circles of the Republican movement (as evidenced by your other posts). I do hope you understand that most Irish-Catholics in the Six Counties have attitudes very similar to those expressed by many blacks in L.A., and are far more likely to sympathize with them than you are.

[FTA69]

[QUOTE] Unfortunately for you, it's FAR from that simple. First of all, the Provos' punishment beatings of criminals seem hypocritical nowadays given that we now know involved they were in organized crime.

The IRA's armed robberies and smuggling networks were not used to enrich individuals and were not for personal gain, rather to fund the organisation itself. If an IRA Volunteer used IRA weapons for self-agrandisement they ended up in a hole, simple as. I know a number of ex-IRA prisoners who were convicted of bank robbery and can categorically state that they never recieved a penny for their actions. The fact is Bunyip, you are simply repeating the tired stereotypes that have been propagated in this country for years. I'm not stating that every IRA member is a saint, or that no Volunteer ever behaved badly; but your insinuations that the IRA were or are simply a glorified gang are fallacious to say the least.

The man who's currently believed to be the PIRA's chief of staff, "Slab" Murphy, is a notorious crime lord who's built a mini-empire and a personal worth of USD 70 million from smuggling, racketeering, and other such activities.

70 million? How do you know? You've never been to South Armagh in your life. I'd also be interested to hear in more depth your assertions of IRA extortion.

Second, the IRA's "policing" also involved intimidating people not to cooperate with the RUC or the British Army, which is of course terrorism.

No, it isn't terrorism. It's quite common in a war situation not to tolerate informers and touts, perhaps the Free French should have excused the Vichy crowd and those who collaborated with the Germans?

[BunyipDude]

The IRA's armed robberies and smuggling networks were not used to enrich individuals and were not for personal gain, rather to fund the organisation itself. If an IRA Volunteer used IRA weapons for self-agrandisement they ended up in a hole, simple as. I know a number of ex-IRA prisoners who were convicted of bank robbery and can categorically state that they never recieved a penny for their actions.

But were all of the Loyalists' criminal activities only for personal gain, too?

The fact is Bunyip, you are simply repeating the tired stereotypes that have been propagated in this country for years. I'm not stating that every IRA member is a saint, or that no Volunteer ever behaved badly; but your insinuations that the IRA were or are simply a glorified gang are fallacious to say the least.

I do not consider the Provos to have been a glorified gang. I do not, however, think that the same is necessarily true of Loyalists, either.

I have said that I find disturbing similarities in the mentalities of both Republican and Loyalist groups with the gangs that exist in the United States (and elsewhere). I think we also must acknowledge that some Republican groups (particularly the Officials and the IPLO) have been actively involved in criminal activity.

The point is, let's not understate the complexities.


70 million? How do you know? You've never been to South Armagh in your life. I'd also be interested to hear in more depth your assertions of IRA extortion.

You've made this argument before, and I get tired of it. The fact that I haven't been to South Armagh does not mean that I can't do reading and learn.

Slab Murphy's smuggling activities (many of which do appear to have been used for self-enrichment) have been widely reported by a variety of news sources. You can check Wikipedia for that (and yes, I know Wikipedia itself isn't reliable, but check the sources they quoted).


No, it isn't terrorism. It's quite common in a war situation not to tolerate informers and touts, perhaps the Free French should have excused the Vichy crowd and those who collaborated with the Germans?

The Brits are not the Germans. And the IRA, unfortunately for you, is generally not recognized as a legitimate army by almost anyone other than their supporters. Therefore, I think the legitimacy of this "war" is debatable for precisely that reason.

The IRA also, from what I have heard, did not simply attack "touts"; they also attacked Catholics simply for fraternizing with British soldiers, or in other words, not treating them like a wartime "enemy".

[Nijinsky]

You've made this argument before, and I get tired of it. The fact that I haven't been to South Armagh does not mean that I can't do reading and learn.

Slab Murphy's smuggling activities (many of which do appear to have been used for self-enrichment) have been widely reported by a variety of news sources. You can check Wikipedia for that (and yes, I know Wikipedia itself isn't reliable, but check the sources they quoted).


You are 100% correct, wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything, but even wikipedia doesnt show a scrap of evidence to support your assertions. Not one.

All it includes are media reports of alleged (and completely unproven or in anyway substantiated) allegations which have emanated from either the British or Irish Government who hate this man because of his alleged role in the freedom struggle over decades.

You should learn not to believe everything that you read, particularly when it comes to accusations against people that have Republican backgrounds.

On what do you base your statement that "many of which do appear to have been used for self-enrichment".?

[BunyipDude]

You are 100% correct, wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything, but even wikipedia doesnt show a scrap of evidence to support your assertions. Not one.

All it includes are media reports of alleged (and completely unproven or in anyway substantiated) allegations which have emanated from either the British or Irish Government who hate this man because of his alleged role in the freedom struggle over decades.

You should learn not to believe everything that you read, particularly when it comes to accusations against people that have Republican backgrounds.

On what do you base your statement that "many of which do appear to have been used for self-enrichment".?

I'd take your criticism more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that I know you believe all Loyalists are just drug-dealing criminals who only care about "self-enrichment", and that if you read an article in the BBC or Irish Times detailing the UDA or UVF's involvement in organized crime, you would probably accept it uncritically and use it as evidence to support your beliefs.

The British government has investigated Loyalists for criminal activities as well, so there is no double-standard. Yes, they don't like Slab Murphy, but it isn't simply because he's a Republican - it's because they do believe they have good evidence to suggest he's actually involved in crime.

Enlighten my ignorant Yank ass...what do the lads in South Armagh say about the Honorable Sir Slab?

[Nijinsky]

BunyipDude: I'd take your criticism more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that I know you believe all Loyalists are just drug-dealing criminals who only care about "self-enrichment", and that if you read an article in the BBC or Irish Times detailing the UDA or UVF's involvement in organized crime, you would probably accept it uncritically and use it as evidence to support your beliefs.

How do you know that Bunny? Care to inform us?

BunyipDude: The British government has investigated Loyalists for criminal activities as well, so there is no double-standard. Yes, they don't like Slab Murphy, but it isn't simply because he's a Republican - it's because they do believe they have good evidence to suggest he's actually involved in crime

No its not. Its because of the role they believe he played in the RA down through the years in the South Armagh region. As for having "good evidence", thats pure b*ll. If they had he would have been charged and convicted a long time ago. The fact is they have not produced a scrap of evidence to even charge him let alone convict him.

I suppose next you'll be telling us there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq :rolleyes: Well loads of Governments and media outlets told us so didnt they?

[FTA69]

But were all of the Loyalists' criminal activities only for personal gain, too?

No. I don't view Loyalists (by which I mean the paramilitaries) as akin to gangs either as they were a product of their political situation. They however, obviously have a much greater tolerance toward their members committing crime for personal gain. Likewise the methods they employ are far more unscrupolous, eg the sale of hard drugs and forced "donations" from their own people are far more destructive than smuggling cows and petrol and blagging banks.

I think we also must acknowledge that some Republican groups (particularly the Officials and the IPLO) have been actively involved in criminal activity.

I agree. My comments were referring to the IRA only, the likes of the IPLO were little more than a gang ie apolitical youngfellas shooting each other over drug money.

You've made this argument before, and I get tired of it. The fact that I haven't been to South Armagh does not mean that I can't do reading and learn.

I once read that the IRA were the biggest heroin dealers in Ireland, it doesn't make it true, especially when no evidence was put behind the claim.

And the IRA, unfortunately for you, is generally not recognized as a legitimate army by almost anyone other than their supporters. Therefore, I think the legitimacy of this "war" is debatable for precisely that reason.

I wouldn't put the word war in inverted commas, a war is what the conflict was. Likewise, the IRA of the Tan War (of which you have spoken affectionately in the past) was not an accountable army either. It's precursor, the 1916 Rising Volunteers, most certainly weren't.

The IRA also, from what I have heard, did not simply attack "touts"; they also attacked Catholics simply for fraternizing with British soldiers, or in other words, not treating them like a wartime "enemy".

The IRA took action against those who accomodated the British Army. I live above an ex-soldier who did two tours in Ireland, I get on fairly well with him and in fact he cooks me a roast every Sunday. I won't be getting banged when I go home over this. However if he was back in Ireland as a soldier and I was bringing him into the pub and shops providing him an oppurtunity to gather intelligence, then I certainly would be called in for a chat.

The point you fail to grasp is the fact that it was the Nationalist communities themselves who didn't want the cops or the Brits in their areas, not just the organisation that was the IRA.

[broche]

Loyalists are just drug-dealing criminals who only care about "self-enrichment"
that is what they are especially the uda and lvf otherwise explin the likes of how jim grey reache the top and how johnny adair had an income of several thousand a week from dealing drugs to other loyalists, you won't find a republican equivalent to that

[Seabird]

Buny,

Being from the inner city does not give anyone more of an excuse to rob, mame etc. Many kids do rise above their surroundings to become productive adults. While you may disagree with Poncho, he has lived it therefore his words hold more credence.

I find it strange for you to ask him why he is on this site, why not???? Many of us support different countries and their desire for freedom, him coming from a once oppressed people and to live through radical discrimination gives him a bond with others that have fought the same battle.

[BunyipDude]

Buny,

Being from the inner city does not give anyone more of an excuse to rob, mame etc. Many kids do rise above their surroundings to become productive adults. While you may disagree with Poncho, he has lived it therefore his words hold more credence.

Of course being from the inner city does not give anyone an excuse to rob. But I also don't think that being discriminated against or feeling short-charged historically gives anybody the right to pick up guns and start killing fellow Irishmen.

No, his words don't hold more credence necessarily. There are plenty of people who would disagree with him who came from the same conditions. I don't think he has the right to assume ANYONE can make it just because he did. That mentality is, I think, an arrogant one.


I find it strange for you to ask him why he is on this site, why not???? Many of us support different countries and their desire for freedom, him coming from a once oppressed people and to live through radical discrimination gives him a bond with others that have fought the same battle.

I didn't ask him why he's on this site. I asked him why he's showing support for Craobh Gal Gréine, a reactionary Catholic nationalist movement that was discussed in this thread:

http://irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4957

Since you mention it, though, I do think he isn't showing much respect for his own people.

BunyipDude:

How do you know that Bunny? Care to inform us?

I will apologize right now for one thing...for some reason, I wrote "you" as if I were referring to you personally. What I meant to write and for some reason did not was "you" in the sense of "you all". Are you really going to deny that many people on this site talk about Loyalists as if they're all a bunch of gangsters while all 'RA volunteers are the only respectable ones? Broche's claim two posts below yours is a perfect example of this mentality.


No its not. Its because of the role they believe he played in the RA down through the years in the South Armagh region. As for having "good evidence", thats pure b*ll. If they had he would have been charged and convicted a long time ago. The fact is they have not produced a scrap of evidence to even charge him let alone convict him.

I suppose next you'll be telling us there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq :rolleyes: Well loads of Governments and media outlets told us so didnt they?

And...OJ Simpson was found not guilty. Clearly, that must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't. Same with Michael Jackson. Obviously, it is easy for you to dismiss my opinion when you think it comes only from the media, isn't it? Slab also claims he was never in the Provos and got ****ed off when he was accused of being the IRA Chief-of-Stafff...and lost a libel case to prove it.

You sound as if you're personally offended. Are you Slab Murphy? Or are you just offended on behalf of Slab Murphy?

No. I don't view Loyalists (by which I mean the paramilitaries) as akin to gangs either as they were a product of their political situation. They however, obviously have a much greater tolerance toward their members committing crime for personal gain. Likewise the methods they employ are far more unscrupolous, eg the sale of hard drugs and forced "donations" from their own people are far more destructive than smuggling cows and petrol and blagging banks.

The Provos have robbed from their own people in the South...and they've killed Garda officers in the process. Isn't that pretty unscrupulous?

Other than that, it is nice to see you have a somewhat more nuanced POV than others on this site.


I agree. My comments were referring to the IRA only, the likes of the IPLO were little more than a gang ie apolitical youngfellas shooting each other over drug money.

Fair enough. But let's discuss this...why is it that some groups are more prone to criminality than others? And doesn't this prove that this is not a specific Loyalist/Republican trend?


I once read that the IRA were the biggest heroin dealers in Ireland, it doesn't make it true, especially when no evidence was put behind the claim.

Of course not. But that doesn't sound like a reasonable claim.

Actually, I don't even understand why anyone supports Slab. Aren't you all ****ed off he's part of the sellout Provos who ditched the armed struggle and their weaponry?


I wouldn't put the word war in inverted commas, a war is what the conflict was. Likewise, the IRA of the Tan War (of which you have spoken affectionately in the past) was not an accountable army either. It's precursor, the 1916 Rising Volunteers, most certainly weren't.

No, they were not. That is true. But given circumstances of the time (namely England behaving far more like an imperialist power), it seems easier to view their war as just. It's a long way from the Provos deciding the time was ripe for war because of clampdowns on civil rights protesters.

BTW, don't you think it kinda sucked that they burned down the Public Record Office?


The IRA took action against those who accomodated the British Army. I live above an ex-soldier who did two tours in Ireland, I get on fairly well with him and in fact he cooks me a roast every Sunday. I won't be getting banged when I go home over this. However if he was back in Ireland as a soldier and I was bringing him into the pub and shops providing him an oppurtunity to gather intelligence, then I certainly would be called in for a chat.

Or kneecapped?


The point you fail to grasp is the fact that it was the Nationalist communities themselves who didn't want the cops or the Brits in their areas, not just the organisation that was the IRA.

Given the circumstances and the fact that the Brits screwed up community relations with internment and Bloody Sunday, that's no surprise.

[FTA69]

The Provos have robbed from their own people in the South..

When? There is a big difference between robbing banks and robbing working class people. The IRA don't call door to door "selling" flags for £10 a pop.

...and they've killed Garda officers in the process. Isn't that pretty unscrupulous?

Its not right but at the same time it's not as if they were killing Guards left, right and centre. The incidents to which you are referring usually occured mid-operation and were very much spur of the moment, they weren't planned actions.

why is it that some groups are more prone to criminality than others?

Because some groups are full of ******s and others aren't.

And doesn't this prove that this is not a specific Loyalist/Republican trend?

There can be no specifics, my only argument was that the IRA is not akin to a gang and that generally Loyalists tend toward criminality for personal gain more than Republicans. I wasn't declaring any absolutes as the reality of the situation proves otherwise.

Actually, I don't even understand why anyone supports Slab. Aren't you all ****ed off he's part of the sellout Provos who ditched the armed struggle and their weaponry?

I don't support Tom Murphy at all, neither do I support armed struggle or weaponry, I never said I did so your point is moot. My only point was that he isn't a "notorious crimelord" as you alleged without providing any proof of such.

But given circumstances of the time (namely England behaving far more like an imperialist power), it seems easier to view their war as just.

England may have been more overtly imperialist back then but that is not the issue at hand, the issue is the morality of an armed struggle at certain times. The 1916 Rising (which blended into the Tan War) was deeply unpopular at the time, in fact less so than the Provo campaign. In 1916 there were almost 100,000 Irish people in the British Army (more people died fighting for the Empire than against it) and the vast majority of the people supported constitutional measures in order to secure Home Rule. The fact remains that a small group launched an insurrection which only became popular 3 years later.

It's a long way from the Provos deciding the time was ripe for war because of clampdowns on civil rights protesters.

Come to think of it, the social repression since 1920 and the burning of nationalist districts is a far better justification than a clandestine group of people launching a Rising in completely constitutional times.

BTW, don't you think it kinda sucked that they burned down the Public Record Office?

Only because 100 Volunteers were lifted.

Or kneecapped?

The IRA didn't go around shooting people in the legs willy nilly.

Given the circumstances and the fact that the Brits screwed up community relations with internment and Bloody Sunday, that's no surprise.

Exactly, therefore it was the wish of the general area that people didn't bring soldiers and Brits into that area, it wasn't an IRA dictat.

[Seabird]

Buny,

Of course being from the inner city does not give anyone an excuse to rob. But I also don't think that being discriminated against or feeling short-charged historically gives anybody the right to pick up guns and start killing fellow Irishmen.

I am not sure what you are referencing with your irishman statement but the Troubles was necessary inorder to advance the movement. Republican principles is something you appear to not truly understand! Is the discrimination historically or currently? I don't think the british have the right to occupy a land that is not their own and as long as they stay, the movement will always be moving toward a united Ireland.

No, his words don't hold more credence necessarily. There are plenty of people who would disagree with him who came from the same conditions. I don't think he has the right to assume ANYONE can make it just because he did. That mentality is, I think, an arrogant one.

Once again it does open the door to selling drugs etc. Is his statement arrogance or a reality?

[quirk]

We received the following correspondence.

I am writing this from Philadelphia, where something backward and wrong is about to go down, beginning October 21, that needs to be opposed.

A “Call” has been issued by a number of Black groups and individuals for 10,000 Black men to patrol and help deter crime and violence in some of the city’s poor Black neighborhoods. The plan is for these “peacekeepers” to work closely with the police.

There is no question that crime and violence are major problems in many of Philly’s Black communities, especially among Black youth. A recent Phila*delphia Inquirer article said that from 1998 through 2006, 2,883 people were murdered in Philadelphia, 85% of them Blacks killed by other Blacks and almost half under the age of 34. So far this year, 315 people, overwhelmingly Black youth, have been killed. The local media have designated Philadelphia “the murder capital” of the country. And the “Call for 10,000 Black men” is being promoted as the Black community’s response to this.

This initiative is spearheaded by the Philadelphia Millions More Movement, along with Black entertainment moguls Kenny Gamble and Charles “Charlie Mack” Alston, Rodney Mohammed of the Nation of Islam, E. Steven Collins of Clear Channel One radio, Jerry Mondesire of the NAACP, Mark Burrell of Men United, plus some 100 community *organizations. (Their website is www.10000menphilly.com.)

Under the initiative, the unarmed “peacekeepers” will be trained in “conflict resolution” and serve as “mentors” to the youth. The police, meanwhile, will identify the Black communities and areas to be patrolled, and the cops will accompany the patrols. Police Commissioner Johnson has praised the initiative and said that he recently attended a conference of police chiefs who expressed strong interest in Philadelphia’s 10,000-men effort. This obviously makes him happy, but it shouldn’t make any right-thinking person happy at all.

Why? Because this “Call for 10,000 Black men” is nothing but a recipe for bringing down further disaster on oppressed Black people. It is based on the notion, propagated by those like Bill Cosby (who is a Philadelphian), that Black people themselves are to blame for their oppression; that the break-up of Black families causes Black-on-Black crime; that the absence of strong Black fathers and role models has caused Black youth to become “street thugs,” killing each other over nonsense. (And the patriarchal nature of this “Call” should be noted—it’s 10,000 Black MEN.)

But this is false. The root cause of the crime and violence in these communities is the capitalist-imperialist system, which was founded and then developed on the backs of slaves and cannot survive today without the continued super-exploitation and oppression of Black people and other national minorities. It is this system that deprives the majority of Black people of decent jobs or any work at all, deprives them of decent education, health care and housing. And in order to try and keep Black people down when they grow angry and rebellious in the face of these horrible conditions, it is this system that sends in its armed occupiers, its police forces.

What does it say about this system that, since 1998, ninety people, most of them Black youth, have been killed by Philadelphia cops? Sixty-six of these killings have occurred in the past five years, and 34 in the past two years alone. And these are the police we are supposed to cooperate with and become human shields for as they do what they are supposed to do—act as the enforcers of this system that has always held Black folks down? The cops who, in 1985 (let’s not forget about this!) presided over the savage murder of 11 members of the Black MOVE group, including six children, by dropping a bomb on their house and then letting the entire neighborhood burn to the ground?

As I walked around the Black North Philly neighborhood last week, an older Black man spoke with bitterness. “Look, this is nothing more than a big snitch network. It won’t work because it doesn’t address the causes of crime and violence. You have young people out here who have nothing and fear nothing ‘cause they see no hope for the future. They see friends and family members go to school, graduate and try to make it and still get harassed or worse by the police. I used to think maybe if we just had more Black people in office things could get better. So I voted for Wilson Goode for mayor. And what did we get? Housing? Jobs? Community programs to help working families? No, we got the murder of 11 MOVE people and the burning down of a whole neighborhood.”

Philadelphia used to be the fourth-largest city in the country. But since the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, huge population shifts have occurred. This has been mostly due to the devastating loss of industries and jobs in the city, as companies have pulled out, seeking to lower costs, including labor costs. Steel and auto factories accounted for the loss of roughly 100,000 jobs when they closed down, better-paying jobs that many Black people had been able to get. This has caused people, mainly Black people, to move from Philadelphia in search of work or to take much lower-paying jobs in nearby communities. And Black youth caught in the city’s ghettos have been especially hard hit, in most cases not able to find any work at all.

A 22-year-old Black woman who opposed the “Call” told me she had spent two years in jail: “In prison I got hooked up with some education courses and when I got out last year I decided to go to school. But they are also disbanding some of these jail programs. It’s like they don’t care. They just want you to rot in there and then when you do get out there’s no hope for a job. If you tell the truth while being interviewed about being in jail, you don’t get hired. And if you lie on the job application and they find out, you get fired. It’s almost as if they want you to be a criminal.”

A number of people I spoke with in North Philly supported the “Call” because they desperately want the Black-on-Black killings and violence to stop. While the desire to bring an end to this crime and violence is understandable, people need to be struggled with to see that if you are working with the police, whose role—whatever their nationality—is to be the enforcers of this system and the conditions it has created and maintained, and to brutalize the masses regularly as part of doing this, then, whatever your intentions, objectively you are working against the interests of the people and are actually helping the oppressors and contributing to the perpetuation of the system that is the very problem in the first place.

What about the bad things the youth are doing to others and themselves? The anger that explodes in people doing things against each other under this system needs to be channeled against the real oppressor.

What is urgently needed in this situation is not things like the “Call for 10,000 Black men,” but the development of a revolutionary movement and a revolutionary movement of women and men who militantly resist all the ways this system comes down on people and who strive to bring about a much better world. A world where the creativity and energy of youth can be unleashed and given flight, rather than locked down and crushed.

A Black youth in North Philly, hanging out on a stoop with some of his buddies, was quiet for most of the back-and-forth conversation. He was reading the Jena 6 article in a recent issue of Revolution. But as I was about to leave he spoke up. “I took off school that Wednesday when the students at Temple University held their protest march down Broad Street in support of the Jena 6, and I joined the march. It was the first time I felt like there was something important to be doing. They talk about our crime, violence and murder, yet they never talk about their crime and the murder, violence and injustice that my people have faced. If your revolution will change this, then I’m with it.”

http://www.rwor.org/a/105/philly-snitches-en.html

[quirk]

Being from the inner city does not give anyone more of an excuse to rob, mame etc. Many kids do rise above their surroundings to become productive adults. While you may disagree with Poncho, he has lived it therefore his words hold more credence.

Determination decides who makes it out of the ghetto—now there is a tired old cliché, at its worst, on every level. This is like looking at millions of people being put through a meatgrinder and instead of focusing on the fact that the great majority are chewed to pieces, concentrating instead on the few who slip through in one piece and then on top of it all, using this to say that “the meatgrinder works”!

Bob Avakian, "The 'City Game'—and The City, No Game," Revolutionary Worker, No. 201, April 15, 1983

[Seabird]

quirk,

How many inner city ghettos have you and buny lived in to make such statements? It is not a cliche but a fact. I lived on a reservation which is far worse than any inner city. You have many obstacles yes but it is up to you and your determination to go further. I was pregnant, working full time and in school, I took nothing from the flippin government that I was fighting. My native sisters who fought beside me came above the harsh conditions also because they refused to allow their children to live as we had. Unless there is no opportunity to rise above your current conditions, you make your choices in life. You cannot blame the system on everyones down fall and if you think that is an acceptable excuse then you are a fool!

[quirk]

How many inner city ghettos have you and buny lived in to make such statements?

Do you not think this statement is a little hypocrytical saying you are posting on a board mainly concerned with Ireland. I don't think I have to live in a place to give my opinion about it just as I would never suggest you or anyone else cannot make an opinion about here saying you dont live here.

[quirk]

As you think it is a matter of personal responsability and those who try can indeed make it out are you of the opinion that black people are just lazy or "bad" in some way? How else could you explain the situation many of them are in if it is not related to the system and the conditions which they find themselves in?

[quirk]

Unless there is no opportunity to rise above your current conditions, you make your choices in life. You cannot blame the system on everyones down fall and if you think that is an acceptable excuse then you are a fool!


BLACK PEOPLES CHOICES?:

Today Blacks who are 12.3% of the U.S. population, make up 43.9% of the current prison population and where Black youth are more than twice as likely to be charged as adults for the same crime as white youth! (See The Covenant with Black America by Tavis Smiley, page 53.)


Cancer

* In 2003, African American men were 1.4 times as likely to have new cases of lung and prostate cancer, compared to non-Hispanic white men.
* African American men were twice as likely to have new cases of stomach cancer as non-Hispanic white men.
* African Americans men had lower 5-year cancer survival rates for lung and pancreatic cancer, compared to non-Hispanic white men.
* In 2003, African American men were 2.4 times as likely to die from prostate cancer, as compared to non-Hispanic white men.
* In 2003, African American women were 10% less likely to have been diagnosed with breast cancer, however, they were 36% more likely to die from breast cancer, compared to non-Hispanic white women.
* In 2003, African American women were 2.3 times as likely to have been diagnosed with stomach cancer, and they were 2.2 times as likely to die from stomach cancer, compared to non-Hispanic white women.


Diabetes

* African American adults were 2.1 times more likely than non-Hispanic white adults to have been diagnosed with diabetes by a physician.
* In 2002, African American men were 2.1 times as likely to start treatment for end-stage renal disease related to diabetes, compared to non-Hispanic white men.
* In 2003, diabetic African Americans were 1.8 times as likely as diabetic Whites to be hospitalized.
* In 2003, African Americans were 2.1 times as likely as non-Hispanic Whites to die from diabetes.


Heart Disease

* In 2003, African American men were 30% more likely to die from heart disease, as compared to non-Hispanic white men.
* African Americans were 1.5 times as likely as non-Hispanic whites to have high blood pressure.
* African American women were 1.6 times as likely as non-Hispanic white women to be obese.


HIV/AIDS

* Although African Americans make up only 13% of the total U.S. population, they accounted for 50% of HIV/AIDS cases in 2004.
* African American males had more than 8 times the AIDS rate of non-Hispanic white males.
* African American females had more than 22 times the AIDS rate of non-Hispanic white females.
* African American men were more than 9 times as likely to die from HIV/AIDS as non-Hispanic white men.
* African American women were more than 21 times as likely to die from HIV/AIDS as non-Hispanic white women.


Immunization

* In 2004, African Americans aged 65 and older were 30% less likely to have received the influenza (flu) shot in the past 12 months, compared to non-Hispanic whites of the same age group.
* In 2005, African American adults aged 65 and older were 30% less likely to have ever received the pneumonia shot, compared to non-Hispanic white adults of the same age group.
* Although African American children aged 19 to 35 months had comparable rates of immunization for hepatitis, influenza, MMR, and polio, they were slightly less likely to be fully immunized, when compared to non-Hispanic white children.


Infant Mortality

* In 2003, African Americans had 2.4 times the infant mortality rate of non-Hispanic whites.
* African American infants were almost 4 times as likely to die from causes related to low birthweight, compared to non-Hispanic white infants.
* African Americans had 2.2 times the sudden infant death syndrome mortality rate as non-Hispanic whites.
* African American mothers were 2.6 times as likely as non-Hispanic white mothers to begin prenatal care in the 3rd trimester, or not receive prenatal care at all.


Stroke

* African American adults were 30% more likely than their White adult counterparts to have a stroke.
* African American males were 50% more likely to die from a stroke than their White adult counterparts.
* Analysis from a CDC health interview survey reveals that African American stroke survivors were more likely to become disabled and have difficulty with activities of daily living than their non-Hispanic white counterparts.
http://www.omhrc.gov/templates/browse.aspx?lvl=1&lvlID=5

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/6/10/21/f_1m_3a76f40.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_1m_3a76f40.jpg&srv=img37)

http://img34.picoodle.com/img/img34/6/10/21/f_2m_844b623.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_2m_844b623.jpg&srv=img34)

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/6/10/21/f_3m_2b48bb5.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_3m_2b48bb5.jpg&srv=img37)

http://img03.picoodle.com/img/img03/6/10/21/f_4m_8b617a3.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_4m_8b617a3.jpg&srv=img03)

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/6/10/21/f_5m_a2a1d0b.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_5m_a2a1d0b.jpg&srv=img37)

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/6/10/21/f_6m_7d92404.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/21/f_6m_7d92404.jpg&srv=img37)

[Seabird]

quirk,

Do you not think this statement is a little hypocrytical saying you are posting on a board mainly concerned with Ireland. I don't think I have to live in a place to give my opinion about it just as I would never suggest you or anyone else cannot make an opinion about here saying you dont live here.

I never said you have to live in a place to give an opinion however you posted your statement as if it were fact. The fact is unless you lived it you do not turly understand, you make assumptions. To go one step further I believe the opinion was someone elses and not that of yer own. Hmm infact all the charts are someone elses study not that of yer own. I will give you my opinion of that in a later post.

As for my opinion on Ireland, I am an Irish American making a statement on my ancestoral affairs not the same as just anyone posting. Or do you begrudge me my irishness? My involvement goes just a tad beyond posting on a forum. Or do you call that hypocritical also. You know you are entitle to your opinion on my worthiness.:icon_lol:

[Seabird]

quirk,

Your graphs are very informative, it would be nice however for you to share your thoughts on the graghs; there is a reason for the difference. Any opinion on why?:confused: Why are the Asians ant Native Americans not shown? You know we do not consist of a merely black and white society, we do have diversity.

[BunyipDude]

quirk,

How many inner city ghettos have you and buny lived in to make such statements? It is not a cliche but a fact. I lived on a reservation which is far worse than any inner city. You have many obstacles yes but it is up to you and your determination to go further. I was pregnant, working full time and in school, I took nothing from the flippin government that I was fighting. My native sisters who fought beside me came above the harsh conditions also because they refused to allow their children to live as we had. Unless there is no opportunity to rise above your current conditions, you make your choices in life. You cannot blame the system on everyones down fall and if you think that is an acceptable excuse then you are a fool!

Seabird...look, I'm getting a bit frustrated with you now. And please note that I do respect your opinions in most other respects, but appealing to "experience" is simply a cheap (and disrespectful) way of trying to discredit somebody.

At the end of the day, I do not believe the nationalist/Republican community OR their supporters have the right to talk about black socio-economic problems as you (and Poncho) have done because the mentalities shared by both communities look the same to me. Yes, I am an outsider here, but I think that is precisely why I can bring a less biased POV to the discussion.

So let me explain how things look to this outsider...

(1.) The Catholics and nationalists blame the Brits for their problems, the inner-city blacks blame the white man for their problems (which are, among other things, the fact that they live in total hellholes full of poverty and unemployment). From the most ignorant perspective imaginable, it looks like a whole bunch of whining and blaming.
(2.) Catholics and nationalists claim that the Brits are still oppressive imperialists because they were that way 100 years ago, inner-city blacks think that all white people and "the system" is still racist and oppressive because it was that way 50 years ago. Not to mention Irish Republicans always talk about how English imperialism in Ireland has been going on for 800 years, while blacks can talk about how white racism and imperialism goes back hundreds of years as well (about 400, give or take). These people see history in completely static terms.
(3.) Catholics think that because they've been wronged by the Brits in the past (and may still be today), that gives them the right to form a "glorious" resistance movement, take up guns, and kill Brits because they feel they've been deprived of the chance to live in a united Ireland that WOULD be happy and prosperous if the Brits would just get out. Inner-city black youth think that because they've been wronged by whites in the past, they have some kind of God-given right to go rob the nearest 7-11 because the white man has deprived them of their inalienable right to happiness which they WOULD have had if not for slavery, Jim Crow laws, etc.
(4.) Catholics kill both Brits (their enemy) and fellow Irishmen (their own), inner-city blacks kill both crackers (their enemy) and fellow blacks (their own). All because they think they've been f*cked over in the past and are still being f*cked over today.
(5.) Northern Ireland is, for the most part, a very poor area largely due to its reputation for paramilitary violence and sectarian conflict. Harlem, Cabrini Green, and Watts are all very poor areas largely because of their reputation for gang violence. But of course, as mentioned before, the residents of both areas (and Marxists) would argue that the gringos are to blame for all of this.

Do you not see what my problem is? And yes, you've already told me I don't fully understand what Republicanism is about, but it's really rather difficult for me to give a sh*t because what it really comes down to, from my unenlightened, "elitist" perspective, is that I see blacks and Irishmen both killing each other and ruining their own neighborhoods, their own communities, all because somebody has done something wrong to them. The fact that Irish Republicans can throw around political jive about "imperialism" and appeal to the IRA's anti-drug stance really doesn't make much of a difference.

So...that is why I simply do not think an Irish-American sympathizer of the Republican movement (i.e. yourself) has any right talking about the black community the way you and Poncho are doing. Quirk and I don't agree with each other, but at least he is consistent in his principles here. I feel that you need to be the same way.

[Seabird]

Buny,

I haven't the time this morning to respond to yer post, did not want you to think I am ignoring it. I will answer later as for now I am off to work.:)

[quirk]

I never said you have to live in a place to give an opinion however you posted your statement as if it were fact. The fact is unless you lived it you do not turly understand, you make assumptions. To go one step further I believe the opinion was someone elses and not that of yer own. Hmm infact all the charts are someone elses study not that of yer own. I will give you my opinion of that in a later post.

As for my opinion on Ireland, I am an Irish American making a statement on my ancestoral affairs not the same as just anyone posting. Or do you begrudge me my irishness? My involvement goes just a tad beyond posting on a forum. Or do you call that hypocritical also. You know you are entitle to your opinion on my worthiness.
quirk,

Your graphs are very informative, it would be nice however for you to share your thoughts on the graghs; there is a reason for the difference. Any opinion on why? Why are the Asians ant Native Americans not shown? You know we do not consist of a merely black and white society, we do have diversity.

First of all I do not begrudge you your Irishness and I actually think your post are extremely constructive and insightful. What I was taking issue with was your claim that I could not make a claim because I didnt live there. I never ever stated any of my opinions as fact and it is true as you said that the quote I posted wasn't my own which is quite clear. I do agree 100% with the quote however I just felt he was able to articulate it much better than I ever could. And the quote is in fact from an American.

As for the graphs I posted them because they are from the U.S. census and are primary sources. They are facts rather than anyones opinion and speak for themselves. I do think however that they clearly show a massive inequality between black and white and so the question must rightly be asked as you pointed out as to why this is so? Earlier in this thread I made clear my opinion that it was a result of the system which exists at present i.e capitalism/imperialism and everything which goes along with it, and I will again try to give some of my reasons for believing so.

As for Native Americans and other minorities not being shown, that is something I am perfectly aware of and the reason I didnt include them is simply because this thread is regarding the situation of black people. I also am of the opinion that other minorities are oppressed.

So back to the reason why such inequality exists and why we find a situation where there is so many problems such as gangs and unemployment within inner city ghetto's and amongst the black populations. I think there can only be two conclusions drawn:
It is their own fault and black people are just lazy and prone to violence and these other problems
It is as a result of something external or the conditions in which they find themselves i.e the system
As I have stated I am of the second opinion but I would like to hear from those who take the opinion that this is a matter of personal responsibility as to why they believe this and how can they explain these massive inequalities if not down to some genetic trait whitin the population in question?

Too often people criticise the community for the actions of some in the in the context of the particular conditions imposed upon them without looking at from where these conditions arise and the forces that impose them. To claim that they are responsible for having no jobs or for being in gangs and getting involved in crime or that the break up of the traditional black family is the cause of all these other problems is a completely flawed view in my opinion and is turning on its head the fundamental law of cause and effect. The breakup of the family like these other problems should be attributed to poverty rather than the other way around.

Where did all these problems come from and what are they rooted in. Is it because of some inherent flaw in the masses of people who engage in these acts (which are in fact wrong and damaging and I don't seek to excuse), or are they responding spontaneously to the conditions that have been imposed upon them?

Begining after ww1 decreasing during the depression, but then acceleration after ww2 black people in millions were expelled from the land and ended up in inner cities. This was the effect of Push-Pull. They went into the ghettos with families largely intact and sought work - usually the men but also the women and for a while some where able to find jobs. But then the jobs began to move away from these areas and Thomas J. Sugrue makes the point in his book The Origins of the Urban Crisis that they moved away for black people before they moved away for others .

The black people were not the ones who picked the jobs up and moved them out of the ghetto. These (black youth today - gang members) were not the ones that when black people went chasing the jobs into the suburbs where they had been moved, discriminated against them. They are not the ones responsible for the poverty which has led to all these other problems.

These are conditions that were caused by the dynamics of capitalist accumulation (and exploitation) both within the USA and including its international dimension and also the conscious policy by ruling class politicians in line with this dynamic.

I also think it is noteworthy that the traditional black family remained largly intact while this was required by the system at that time i.e. when black people were mainly involved in share cropping which required the input of the entire family.

I am of the belief that the people can indeed move beyond these problems but what is first necessary is for them to properly understand what is the real cause of their problems - capitalism/imperialism and then rooting it out and in the process changing themselves as Marx pointed to in his Theses On Feuerbach when he talked about changing circumstances and changing people through revolution.

[Seabird]

buny,

How many inner city ghettos have you and buny lived in to make such statements? It is not a cliche but a fact. I lived on a reservation which is far worse than any inner city. You have many obstacles yes but it is up to you and your determination to go further. I was pregnant, working full time and in school, I took nothing from the flippin government that I was fighting. My native sisters who fought beside me came above the harsh conditions also because they refused to allow their children to live as we had. Unless there is no opportunity to rise above your current conditions, you make your choices in life. You cannot blame the system on everyones down fall and if you think that is an acceptable excuse then you are a fool!

Seabird...look, I'm getting a bit frustrated with you now. And please note that I do respect your opinions in most other respects, but appealing to "experience" is simply a cheap (and disrespectful) way of trying to discredit somebody.

I am a bit frustrated with you also. I gave you my opinion and you said it was a tired old cliche, I give you a very small portion of my own experience and you call it cheap and disrespectful. Hmmmm I am not trying to discredit your post, I simply do not agree with you because you in my OPINION are attempting to sterotype the entire black race in America that lives in the ghetto. You are attempting to blame the government for all the problems in the hood and that is just not true. That is not being inconsistent, I support Mumia a black man that was arrested when oppression truly existed in America but I do not believe that the problems today are due to oppressive conditions now but rather economics, family structuring, education etc. There is a multitude of problems in these areas and it does not soley rest on the door of the government.You know buny all ethnic groups have impoverished areas is this the fault the government or oppression?

At the end of the day, I do not believe the nationalist/Republican community OR their supporters have the right to talk about black socio-economic problems as you (and Poncho) have done because the mentalities shared by both communities look the same to me.

Excuse me. . . mentalities??? And you mean what here???

I don't have the right to talk about black socio-economic problems???? Who died and left you God, that is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever seen on a board. I have the right to express my opinion on any subject matter I choose or did they take freedom of expression away while I was sleeping.

Yes, I am an outsider here, but I think that is precisely why I can bring a less biased POV to the discussion.

:icon_lol: However because you can bring a less bias opinion to the discussion that gives you implied permission? You have the right to express yerself but Poncho and I do not??:icon_laugh:

Do you not see what my problem is? And yes, you've already told me I don't fully understand what Republicanism is about, but it's really rather difficult for me to give a sh*t because what it really comes down to, from my unenlightened, "elitist" perspective, is that I see blacks and Irishmen both killing each other and ruining their own neighborhoods, their own communities, all because somebody has done something wrong to them. The fact that Irish Republicans can throw around political jive about "imperialism" and appeal to the IRA's anti-drug stance really doesn't make much of a difference.

You truly do not understand! Are you by some chance a right wing, republican southern Baptist? It would suit you!:eusa_silenced:

[ciaranxavier]

Seabird...look, I'm getting a bit frustrated with you now. And please note that I do respect your opinions in most other respects, but appealing to "experience" is simply a cheap (and disrespectful) way of trying to discredit somebody.

At the end of the day, I do not believe the nationalist/Republican community OR their supporters have the right to talk about black socio-economic problems as you (and Poncho) have done because the mentalities shared by both communities look the same to me. Yes, I am an outsider here, but I think that is precisely why I can bring a less biased POV to the discussion.

So let me explain how things look to this outsider...

(1.) The Catholics and nationalists blame the Brits for their problems, the inner-city blacks blame the white man for their problems (which are, among other things, the fact that they live in total hellholes full of poverty and unemployment). From the most ignorant perspective imaginable, it looks like a whole bunch of whining and blaming.
(2.) Catholics and nationalists claim that the Brits are still oppressive imperialists because they were that way 100 years ago, inner-city blacks think that all white people and "the system" is still racist and oppressive because it was that way 50 years ago. Not to mention Irish Republicans always talk about how English imperialism in Ireland has been going on for 800 years, while blacks can talk about how white racism and imperialism goes back hundreds of years as well (about 400, give or take). These people see history in completely static terms.
(3.) Catholics think that because they've been wronged by the Brits in the past (and may still be today), that gives them the right to form a "glorious" resistance movement, take up guns, and kill Brits because they feel they've been deprived of the chance to live in a united Ireland that WOULD be happy and prosperous if the Brits would just get out. Inner-city black youth think that because they've been wronged by whites in the past, they have some kind of God-given right to go rob the nearest 7-11 because the white man has deprived them of their inalienable right to happiness which they WOULD have had if not for slavery, Jim Crow laws, etc.
(4.) Catholics kill both Brits (their enemy) and fellow Irishmen (their own), inner-city blacks kill both crackers (their enemy) and fellow blacks (their own). All because they think they've been f*cked over in the past and are still being f*cked over today.
(5.) Northern Ireland is, for the most part, a very poor area largely due to its reputation for paramilitary violence and sectarian conflict. Harlem, Cabrini Green, and Watts are all very poor areas largely because of their reputation for gang violence. But of course, as mentioned before, the residents of both areas (and Marxists) would argue that the gringos are to blame for all of this.

Do you not see what my problem is? And yes, you've already told me I don't fully understand what Republicanism is about, but it's really rather difficult for me to give a sh*t because what it really comes down to, from my unenlightened, "elitist" perspective, is that I see blacks and Irishmen both killing each other and ruining their own neighborhoods, their own communities, all because somebody has done something wrong to them. The fact that Irish Republicans can throw around political jive about "imperialism" and appeal to the IRA's anti-drug stance really doesn't make much of a difference.

So...that is why I simply do not think an Irish-American sympathizer of the Republican movement (i.e. yourself) has any right talking about the black community the way you and Poncho are doing. Quirk and I don't agree with each other, but at least he is consistent in his principles here. I feel that you need to be the same way.

youve been watching too much news this is not a sectarian war this is an irish vs an opposing power war. all your talk about catholics is the reason the world perceives this war as a sectarian conflict and not a legitimate war of independence from a foreign enemy. the english media has done such a good job of making it look like sectarian violence that some of the youth are partaking in it, from both sides not just the catholic. religion shouldnt matter in any country whether you want to be muslim, buddhist, catholic, hindu, it shouldnt matter. englands propaganda machine is so effective that the world has a distorted view of the real problems in ireland.

[Seabird]

ciaran,

youve been watching too much news this is not a sectarian war this is an irish vs an opposing power war. all your talk about catholics is the reason the world perceives this war as a sectarian conflict and not a legitimate war of independence from a foreign enemy. the english media has done such a good job of making it look like sectarian violence that some of the youth are partaking in it, from both sides not just the catholic. religion shouldnt matter in any country whether you want to be muslim, buddhist, catholic, hindu, it shouldnt matter. englands propaganda machine is so effective that the world has a distorted view of the real problems in ireland.

Good post!!:eusa_clap:

[Kat]

As a black american male, I must say most of you white folks have no ****ing clue what your talking about. Honestly I know you irish guys have good intentions, and while you may feel we are oppressed, its not the case.


I grew up on crenshaw blvd, my familly was so poor we went 14 months with out power. Ive never sold or done drugs, yet everyone I grew up with is a waste of oxygen. The only thing holding the black man back on the west coast, is the black man.

My old hood is full of lazy bums, who would rather rob and kill then work PEROID. I make over 90k a year with blue collar job that took nothing more then a high school education. If I can doit so can they.

Ive seen people killed for the pair of shoes they were wearing, or for not being black enough. You can blame the problems there on what ever you want, the fact is, it comes from this "the white man owes me" mentality that is ****ing up everything, its created a generation of lazy people who want the easy life without putting in any effort.

I do wish my grandmother would have had more goverment income(disabled, its the same for people of all color's) But I know I turned out the way i did, because I raised by a strong woman not afraid to get her hands dirty.




I grew up in a neighborhood very similar to yours, I am white but I was a minority in my area, in fact i was more than that, I was a curiosity... I do well now too (not as well as you, but enough to pay a mortgage in a home i would not have even dared to dream of living in as a kid), my white skin helped me some but the real reasons i am out of there are luck and my parents, who were poor but exceedingy hard working and unusually strong people. The real reason YOU are out of there is luck and your Grandmother. It has far less to do with you than you realise, Not that you did not work hard, but darlin, everybody works hard, even the so and sos out hustlin. your Grandmother has or had a strength and resourcefulness that most of the population lack. She was able to overcome obstacles in her life and have enough energy left over after merely survivng to pass along some life skills to you. You had an advantage that can't be bought, as did I. Most people I grew up with did not. I assume the same can bve said for you.

It is all fine and well to say, I have more because I deserve it, but the fact is, you have more because you had someone to tell you that you could. The black community may well be at fault for thier actions, though circomstances of poverty do play a role as well, I am not saying that individuals bear no responsibilty for thier actions at all. All murderers should pay the price for murder, all shoplifters should pay the price for shoplifting, but all black people should not be blamed for all murder and shoplifting. I HIGHLY doubt that most communities in the same situation would fare any better than the black community did in the face of institutional racism and a police state stacked against them. I am reasonably certain if we took a crowd of affluent white people and stuck them into identical circumstances of those who came up in cabrini green, it would take LESS time for them to descend into the state of desparation that poor black communities are in.

Like it or not, not every black man from the hood can just go and get a 90k a year job, if for no other reason, there simply are not that many of those jobs to go around, and there are fewer and fewer every day. young men do not deserve to be shot in back of the head in any circumstance