Derry INLA uncover 'British agent

[Vox Populi]

Derry INLA uncover 'British agent'
Derry Journal

By Staff reporter
The 'Journal' can reveal that one of the INLA's most senior members in Derry has been working as a British agent for more than 20 years.
A source close to the INLA says it recently discovered the man has been passing information to both MI5 and police Special Branch since 1985.

It’s thought that the man, believed to be from the Greater Shantallow area of the city, was a central figure in the organisation throughout the 1980s and 1990s. As such, it’s understood he would have been aware of all INLA operations in the city.

The INLA source revealed that the man was a key member of the organisation until the late 1990s and, since then, had continued to be involved with the IRSP - the organisation’s political wing - and served at a high level in the party.

The source told the ‘Journal’: “We have just discovered an informer within the organisation. He has been passing information to the British security forces since 1985 and getting paid for it. He met with his MI5 and Special Branch handlers regularly, as often as every two weeks, to pass on information. He was in a central position within the INLA in the 1980s and would have known details of every operation taking place in the Derry area.

“He was a big figure within the INLA. In fact, he would have been a very central figure in the INLA up until eight or nine years ago. Since then he worked largely with the IRSP. We believe that, during this time, he continued to pass on low level intelligence on the activities of the IRSP. He was working for his handlers right up to when he was uncovered,” the source said.

Being ‘debriefed’

It’s suggested that the man is currently being “debriefed” by the INLA in Derry.

The
source added: “He is being very co-operative. He is giving a full account of the information he passed to his handlers.The debriefing could be a long process because he was passing information for such a long time and meeting his handlers so regularly.”

According to the INLA source, the man is not under any threat from the organisation. “He has nothing to fear from the INLA. He is co-operatiing with the republican socialist movement and there is no threat against him,” the source said.

A spokesperson for the IRSP condemned the recruitment of informers and encouraged anyone in a similar position to come forward.

“As a political party, we condemn any efforts by a foreign government to infiltrate our party. We would also encourage anyone else who may find themselves in a similar position of working for British intelligence to come forward and they will get a sympathetic ear from us.”

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Derry-INLA-uncover-39British-agent39.3241241.jp

[scarface]

Derry INLA uncover 'British agent'
Derry Journal

By Staff reporter
The 'Journal' can reveal that one of the INLA's most senior members in Derry has been working as a British agent for more than 20 years.
A source close to the INLA says it recently discovered the man has been passing information to both MI5 and police Special Branch since 1985.

It’s thought that the man, believed to be from the Greater Shantallow area of the city, was a central figure in the organisation throughout the 1980s and 1990s. As such, it’s understood he would have been aware of all INLA operations in the city.

The INLA source revealed that the man was a key member of the organisation until the late 1990s and, since then, had continued to be involved with the IRSP - the organisation’s political wing - and served at a high level in the party.

The source told the ‘Journal’: “We have just discovered an informer within the organisation. He has been passing information to the British security forces since 1985 and getting paid for it. He met with his MI5 and Special Branch handlers regularly, as often as every two weeks, to pass on information. He was in a central position within the INLA in the 1980s and would have known details of every operation taking place in the Derry area.

“He was a big figure within the INLA. In fact, he would have been a very central figure in the INLA up until eight or nine years ago. Since then he worked largely with the IRSP. We believe that, during this time, he continued to pass on low level intelligence on the activities of the IRSP. He was working for his handlers right up to when he was uncovered,” the source said.

Being ‘debriefed’

It’s suggested that the man is currently being “debriefed” by the INLA in Derry.

The
source added: “He is being very co-operative. He is giving a full account of the information he passed to his handlers.The debriefing could be a long process because he was passing information for such a long time and meeting his handlers so regularly.”

According to the INLA source, the man is not under any threat from the organisation. “He has nothing to fear from the INLA. He is co-operatiing with the republican socialist movement and there is no threat against him,” the source said.

A spokesperson for the IRSP condemned the recruitment of informers and encouraged anyone in a similar position to come forward.

“As a political party, we condemn any efforts by a foreign government to infiltrate our party. We would also encourage anyone else who may find themselves in a similar position of working for British intelligence to come forward and they will get a sympathetic ear from us.”

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Derry-INLA-uncover-39British-agent39.3241241.jp

are they not going to kill him?? he should have his ****ing teeth pulled out

[Erin_go_bragh]

are they not going to kill him?? he should have his ****ing teeth pulled out

We'll soon see. I wouldnt like to be in his position right now. I wonder what will happen after he is debriefed?

[scarface]

We'll soon see. I wouldnt like to be in his position right now. I wonder what will happen after he is debriefed?

well he knew the price of informing before he became an informant we will never know how many INLA men were jailed or even killed because of his actions

[JPL]

Did someone mispell dekneed with debriefed? As liberal as my roots lie, being an informant and selling out your own fellow countrymen is just downright ****ed up.

[MarkyMark]

I have a feeling theyll just tell him to leave the country. But it all depende=s how much info he passed on

[Parsons]

are they not going to kill him?? he should have his ****ing teeth pulled out

Is that how the brave Volunteers enforce the Law of the Republic? I thought the oul shovel treatment was the preferred method, no? I think the IRSM have given the right sort of response to this. The man came forward and has presumably ended his activities so I see no need to kill him (besides the fact that the INLA or any of the IRAs have no right to kill or physically punish anyone).

[MarkyMark]

your right there. Killing him isnt going to help anyone, certainly not the IRSM anyway

[scarface]

Is that how the brave Volunteers enforce the Law of the Republic? I thought the oul shovel treatment was the preferred method, no? I think the IRSM have given the right sort of response to this. The man came forward and has presumably ended his activities so I see no need to kill him (besides the fact that the INLA or any of the IRAs have no right to kill or physically punish anyone).

oh he stopped informing maybe they should give him a pat on the back and you support the WSM do you not find it ironic that a bunch of sponger students support the rights of workers most of you will probably be working for a multinational company in the 10 years anyway

[Parsons]

Not every member of the WSM is a student. So people who work for multi-nationals (as opposed to Irish companies?) aren't allowed to involve themselves in working class politics, is it? That's a lot of people my friend. RSF really have a problem with Anarchists/Socialists/Communists don’t they?

[scarface]

Not every member of the WSM is a student. So people who work for multi-nationals (as opposed to Irish companies?) aren't allowed to involve themselves in working class politics, is it? That's a lot of people my friend. RSF really have a problem with Anarchists/Socialists/Communists don’t they?

no we don't but i have a huge problem with 'student radicals' who forget their cause the minute they leave college

[Parsons]

So do I.

[FTA69]

The WSM are sound enough Scarface, I know a good few of their members (some of whom are ex-Republicans) and the ones I know are as committed a bunch of activists as anyone else. For instance it was the WSM who were on the ball in Rossport before anyone else bothered their holes about the issue.

I think that some of them have mad opinions on the concept of Republicanism, and smaller issues such as Cuba etc, but that doesn't negate the fact they are a hard-working group who do a lot of good for their size.

[FTA69]

(besides the fact that the INLA or any of the IRAs have no right to kill or physically punish anyone).

Perhaps they should set up a local peoples' committee to deal with touts? :icon_lol:

At the end of the day he was a British informer within the INLA, he knew the risks and that's that.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"No need to kill him"?! The man's been spying for the British for twenty years, has responsibility for God knows how many dead and imprisoned INLA men and bungled ops and there's "no need to kill him"?! Where's your backbone man?! The man is by any definition a traitor and he should die, simple as that.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"The IRA and the INLA have no right to physically punish and kill anyone" - and this extends to treachery does it?

[scarface]

Perhaps they should set up a local peoples' committee to deal with touts? :icon_lol:

At the end of the day he was a British informer within the INLA, he knew the risks and that's that.

here here

[quirk]

The INLA have to decide what to do as they will be the only ones who have all the facts. Each case must be judged on its own merits and while this person fully deseves whatever he gets there could be advantages gained in letting him live, one being that it may persuade others to come forward.

[Nijinsky]

The INLA have to decide what to do as they will be the only ones who have all the facts. Each case must be judged on its own merits and while this person fully deseves whatever he gets there could be advantages gained in letting him live, one being that it may persuade others to come forward.

Fully agree quirk. While the scumbag would deserve to be nailed it makes more sense to leave the door open for touts ot come forward. What incentive is there for touts to come forward ifi they know they will be killed anyway? It makes more sense to encourage them to come forward before being discovered. That way they will have a way out and it is of more benefit to whatever organisation they were touting on

[scarface]

Fully agree quirk. While the scumbag would deserve to be nailed it makes more sense to leave the door open for touts ot come forward. What incentive is there for touts to come forward ifi they know they will be killed anyway? It makes more sense to encourage them to come forward before being discovered. That way they will have a way out and it is of more benefit to whatever organisation they were touting on

ifyou were an INLA volunteer in Derry would you be so forgiving?

[Mellows1922]

Fully agree quirk. While the scumbag would deserve to be nailed it makes more sense to leave the door open for touts ot come forward. What incentive is there for touts to come forward ifi they know they will be killed anyway? It makes more sense to encourage them to come forward before being discovered. That way they will have a way out and it is of more benefit to whatever organisation they were touting on

Conversely if you don't deal with them in a severe manner what is there to deter them from becoming touts in the first place ?

[Nijinsky]

ifyou were an INLA volunteer in Derry would you be so forgiving?


Its absolutely nothing to do with being forgiving. I'd never forgive the bast*rd. And if I was an INLA volunteer in Derry it would be in my interest to not kill this guy if he came forward as opposed to being discovered. Thats the best way to get other touts to come forward if they see that they can do so and survive. It gives them an escape option which suits the organisation they are touting on also as they get to debrief these touts and also encourage other touts to come forward too.

[Nijinsky]

Conversely if you don't deal with them in a severe manner what is there to deter them from becoming touts in the first place ?

If they are caught as opposed to coming forward and admitting their role they should be shot. Would that not be a deterrant?

[Mellows1922]

If they are caught as opposed to coming forward and admitting their role they should be shot. Would that not be a deterrant?

But this guy didn't come forward did he ? It simply mentions that he was discovered.

[Nijinsky]

But this guy didn't come forward did he ? It simply mentions that he was discovered.


Well if he was discovered, as opposed to coming forward, then I have already pointed out what shoudl happen to him havent I? I am not in possession of the full details so I dont know the ins and outs of the case but I have stated clearly what should happen to those caught and what should happen to those who come forward on their own.

[FTA69]

Where's your backbone man?!

You go kill him then lad. It's easy to call for peoples' deaths over the internet, it is a matter of tactics, not cowardice.

[broche]

If they are caught as opposed to coming forward and admitting their role they should be shot. Would that not be a deterrant

they might only come foward because they are about to be caught, like donaldson

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Point taken, I stand humbled and chastised...

[Erin_go_bragh]

Point taken, I stand humbled and chastised...

About ****in time aswell:icon_lol:

[ártybhoy]

Everyones saying the damage done to fellow irps?
What about the ira and everyone else in general?
Who stuck in danny docherty and wullie fleming ambushed by the sas at gransha hospital maybe not that guy, maybe it was. It's not the point that he came forward or maybe hes been forced too or get a bullet? I think hes putting himself at the mercy of the media so everyone is watching it will have special branch out in choppers everywere watching to see if they can catch inla men going to plug him.

****ing 2 options! Let him spill the truth give up other touts,everything hes done the lot. Then banish him to england, nobody likes being forced from their comfort zone.
If he plays hard to get treat him the way the sas did to tout victim willie fleming 60 bullets through his body http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Fleming_(Irish_republican

This is the second magor tout thing in derry county involving irps last year a man was caught (a gangster/druggie) who had been recruiting other high profile touts and hoods saying they where a asu of the inla he never got killed that much i remember i think he was ordered out, if people are doing things like this using the different groups names to commit crime it shows how ****ing much an influence the groups "don't have" in the communities, no wonder hoods are running riot.

[quirk]

I would think that the IRSM do actually have influence in Derry. As for the previous incident which you talk about I believe if a problem can be solved without killing someone then that should usually be the course to take.

[redflag32]

ifyou were an INLA volunteer in Derry would you be so forgiving?


But surely republicans must put emotions as secondary to political tactics and whats the correct thing to do. If the vols were all leading from the heart and not the head the struggle would degenerate into romanticism.

[redflag32]

Conversely if you don't deal with them in a severe manner what is there to deter them from becoming touts in the first place ?

I think that argument would be very important if the armed struggle was still ongoing,but because the RSM are politically orientated now the attraction of setting up new touts within the RSM by special branch is not as desireable because they wouldnt do as much damage.

[MarkyMark]

so has there been any news on what happened to this informer?? or are they still "debriefing" him?

[Diarmuid]

Did someone mispell dekneed with debriefed? As liberal as my roots lie, being an informant and selling out your own fellow countrymen is just downright ****ed up.

Aye, feeding information to a mob that want to mess up your comrades is very low. :eusa_sick:

[broche]

informers have sabotaged nearly every attempt at uprising since the 1641 Rebellion, which could have succeded otherwise

[ártybhoy]

redflag but because the RSM are politically orientated now t
Do you think so?
What about the machinepistols getting fired at commemorations etc?
(witch i'm not agains't) But saying your politically motivated while the heavy shows of strength i.e loads of inla men with berets on and their faces covered up?
This march for example - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2JmBljQcmA i was waiting for the firing party to pop out and start spraying the sky.

[FTA69]

informers have sabotaged nearly every attempt at uprising since the 1641 Rebellion, which could have succeded otherwise

They wrecked the Battle of Kinsale too, a fella called Mahon led English spies around the back of the Irish camp lines the night before in exchange for a bottle of whiskey.

[Vox Populi]

redflag
Do you think so?
What about the machinepistols getting fired at commemorations etc?
(witch i'm not agains't) But saying your politically motivated while the heavy shows of strength i.e loads of inla men with berets on and their faces covered up?
This march for example - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2JmBljQcmA i was waiting for the firing party to pop out and start spraying the sky.
Yes. The IRSM is politically orientated, the Ta Power Document has been consistently implemented since Gino Gallagher assumed leadership in 1995.

[redflag32]

redflag
Do you think so?
What about the machinepistols getting fired at commemorations etc?
(witch i'm not agains't) But saying your politically motivated while the heavy shows of strength i.e loads of inla men with berets on and their faces covered up?
This march for example - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2JmBljQcmA i was waiting for the firing party to pop out and start spraying the sky.

The word i used was "orientated". I never said the INLA was gone,and i also dont think they should!

[ártybhoy]

redflag

but because the RSM are politically orientated
So why moan about SF going the politicall route? Because your 40 years behind at best?
And how the hell can you use the word politics while carrying the "Wee red book" about?
Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin.
Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

[FTA69]

Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin.
Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

And that is your informed and considered opinion is it? To be honest lad, you haven't a clue what you're on about.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

It is difficult to reason with stupidity FTA69.

[FTA69]

I wouldn't call anybody stupid, but it certainly was a stupid comment. Declaring all socialists or communists as "madmen dictators" is simply a crass generalisation, and serves no purpose. The likes of the Cuban Revolution will always be an inspiration, certainly more so than McGuinness laughing and joking with Henry Kissinger.

[Joseph Pariah]

Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin. Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

You have a Ché Guevara flag as your avatar. Ché Guevara was a Revolutionary Communist. Please explain why an anti-Communist would have such an image as their avatar?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Refer to my earlier comment JP.

[Joseph Pariah]

:eusa_dance:

[Sniperatwork81]

john hogan is his name

[KillinSnakes]

So why moan about SF going the politicall route? Because your 40 years behind at best?
And how the hell can you use the word politics while carrying the "Wee red book" about?
Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin.
Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

priceless!

you forgot to include the international hook nosed conspiracy bit.

[ciaranxavier]

You have a Ché Guevara flag as your avatar. Ché Guevara was a Revolutionary Communist. Please explain why an anti-Communist would have such an image as their avatar?

che guevera was a socialist not a communist.

[Vox Populi]

The events took place in Cuba after the success of the revolution led by
Fidel Castro.

In the euphoric days after the revolution, Castro was making a speech in
front of a crowd of his supporters, including his famous comrade Ernesto
"Che" Guevara.

Castro did not have a viable candidate for the post of Minister of Economy
in his government, so he asked the crowd: "Is there an economist here?"
Che enthusiastically stood up to Castro's call. Castro promptly made Che
Minister of Economy in his regime.

A little later while in private Castro said to Che: "I did not know you
were an economist. I thought you were a doctor" [which he was]. Che
appeared confused and answered: "Of course I'm not an ECONOMIST. I thought
you asked if there was a COMMUNIST in the crowd, and I was surprised no
one but me answered your call."

:eusa_clap:

[ártybhoy]

Don't put that ****ing psycho stalin on the same level as che guevara, stalin was a fat ****bag who hid in a bunker in moscow during the war.
Che guevara went all over the world personelly helping countries there isn't anyone like him the rest are just crazy men holding there countries by fear of death.

[Puddies]

Don't put that ****ing psycho stalin on the same level as che guevara, stalin was a fat ****bag who hid in a bunker in moscow during the war.
Che guevara went all over the world personelly helping countries there isn't anyone like him the rest are just crazy men holding there countries by fear of death.Ché Guevara was a Stalinist.

[ártybhoy]

Well i admit defeat. why he looked up to a man that killed millions of his own people is strange.
The wee red book was a total failure in china was it not? didn't millions of people die there aswell.
I just dont get it, it can never work in countries that have loads of rich people and power.

[ciaranxavier]

Ché Guevara was a Stalinist.

che guevera was not a stalinist that is the biggest load of donkey doo doo ive ever heard. che was the epitome of socialism and the only reason cuba took some of the turns it did was because fidel had the final say. and fidel wasnt a communist or stalinist either he used the communists to his advantage.

[ártybhoy]

ciaran i'd tend to believe yourself mate i cant believe he looked up to an alchoholic buture it makes no sense plus it has spoiled my thought of ernesto, joe stalin was just like that drunk yeltsin ffs

[ciaranxavier]

che guevera was not a stalinist that is the biggest load of donkey doo doo ive ever heard. che was the epitome of socialism and the only reason cuba took some of the turns it did was because fidel had the final say. and fidel wasnt a communist or stalinist either he used the communists to his advantage.

che was one of the most influential revolutionaries of his time known for his progressive policys in civil rights inside cuba. stalin was a brutal dictator known for his iron fist and the opression of millions of people.

[Puddies]

che guevera was not a stalinist that is the biggest load of donkey doo doo ive ever heard. che was the epitome of socialism and the only reason cuba took some of the turns it did was because fidel had the final say. and fidel wasnt a communist or stalinist either he used the communists to his advantage.You, again, have no clue of what you're talking about.


"I am a Marxist-Leninist and I will be one until the last day of my life."

-Fidel Castro

[ártybhoy]

stalin made the disappeared of el salvador look like a dog gone wandering with his making people disappear

[Puddies]

stalin made the disappeared of el salvador look like a dog gone wandering with his making people disappearWhere did you hear that?

[ártybhoy]

Puddies i've asked you a few times to explain this **** and you just fire out with one line remarks. Stalin was a sociopath who had severe bouts of paranoia wiping out everyone all around him that was his friends, we know what he done with people against him he is a red adolph hitler as is mao, mao the farmer lol trying to grow food on carparks. He left his country ****ed and people that terrified they handed in everything made of steel for the great revolution that tripped up over an invisible bannana skin. right wing fascists and left wing dictators are cut from the same vile cloth.

[ártybhoy]

Where did you hear that?
Hear? I was reading books when you where in yer nappies.

[Erin_go_bragh]

Now arty, Russia became more industrialised at a faster rate than any other nation about in stalins rain. He also had the right idea concerning russian defence policy. He cannot be shunned for a few uncontrollable famines.

[Puddies]

Puddies i've asked you a few times to explain this **** and you just fire out with one line remarks. Stalin was a sociopath who had severe bouts of paranoia wiping out everyone all around him that was his friends, we know what he done with people against him he is a red adolph hitler as is mao, mao the farmer lol trying to grow food on carparks. He left his country ****ed and people that terrified they handed in everything made of steel for the great revolution that tripped up over an invisible bannana skin. right wing fascists and left wing dictators are cut from the same vile cloth.I'm asking you for some sources on your accusations against Stalin and Mao. In my opinion neither Stalin or Mao were perfect but they both had a positive impact on their people and contributed much to socialist thought. The living standards in both Russia and China shot way up during their revolutions, it wasn't until Stalin and Mao's deaths that their respective nations went downhill.

Mind if I ask what books you read this in?

[ártybhoy]

Now arty, Russia became more industrialised at a faster rate than any other nation about in stalins rain. He also had the right idea concerning russian defence policy. He cannot be shunned for a few uncontrollable famines.
I'm not talking about industry i'm talking about people getting worked to death,dissapeared and sent of to re education camps.
Russias defence young man was nearly the end of us.

Puddies i read a book called lethal politics witch didn't paint a pretty picture of yer man.
If stalin and mao done that **** today america and the world would be screaming for their scalps, china will be the no1 superpower not because of mao because of america whoring the country for cheap labour but that cheap labour is funding in my opinion the future super power and best army in the world and no doubt a road to fecking more war.

[Puddies]

I'm not talking about industry i'm talking about people getting worked to death,dissapeared and sent of to re education camps.
Russias defence young man was nearly the end of us.

Puddies i read a book called lethal politics witch didn't paint a pretty picture of yer man.
If stalin and mao done that **** today america and the world would be screaming for their scalps, china will be the no1 superpower not because of mao because of america whoring the country for cheap labour but that cheap labour is funding in my opinion the future super power and best army in the world and no doubt a road to fecking more war.Well your man Rummel who wrote that book is a right-wing American neocon, don't you think there might have been some bias in his research? I'd be willing to bet he'd call the Provos and certainly Ché nothing more than murdering bastards as well.

[ciaranxavier]

You, again, have no clue of what you're talking about.


"I am a Marxist-Leninist and I will be one until the last day of my life."

-Fidel Castro

no you have no clue. your trying to paint a hero as a communist and he was not a communist. and look at the date on that quote he was feeding the communists egos. and using some of their theorys does not make you communist. the best government is one who takes the good from everyones theorys.

[Puddies]

no you have no clue. your trying to paint a hero as a communist and he was not a communist. and look at the date on that quote he was feeding the communists egos. and using some of their theorys does not make you communist. the best government is one who takes the good from everyones theorys.Why the past tense?

[KillinSnakes]

Well i admit defeat. why he looked up to a man that killed millions of his own people is strange.
The wee red book was a total failure in china was it not? didn't millions of people die there aswell.
I just dont get it, it can never work in countries that have loads of rich people and power.

Those countries had famines during the great leap forward, but they also had famines in years previous the socialist regimes.

The best comparison to make between a socialist country and a non-socialist country is to look at Russia during the USSR and post USSR (because the two states are comparable in industrialisation, infrastructure, education, etc.). In nearly every way, the USSR was better, that's not even up for debate. Millions perished as a result of the USSR's collapse.

[Puddies]

http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/index.html

Check out the before and after stats for Cuba if you haven't seen them before.

[quirk]

mao the farmer lol trying to grow food on carparks. He left his country ****ed and people that terrified they handed in everything made of steel for the great revolution that tripped up over an invisible bannana skin. right wing fascists and left wing dictators are cut from the same vile cloth.

http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/6/10/25/f_1m_3fa9138.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/25/f_1m_3fa9138.jpg&srv=img40)

[ártybhoy]

Oh dont get me wrong its an excelent idea on paper i'm just judging it from what i've saw and read over the years.
I think it cant work in this day and age with rich yanks investing billions in every country therefore puting themselves between the people and the fatcats who run these convyerbelt sweatshop factories that they make their money from.

[Puddies]

Oh dont get me wrong its an excelent idea on paper i'm just judging it from what i've saw and read over the years.
I think it cant work in this day and age with rich yanks investing billions in every country therefore puting themselves between the people and the fatcats who run these convyerbelt sweatshop factories that they make their money from.Arty did you see who wrote that book you got your opinon on Stalin from? If you're going to get your history of communism from the likes of him you might as well get your history of republicanism from Ian Paisley.

[ártybhoy]

Puddies i would be aswell getting my answers from paisley given the ****e you come away with.
One line answers from angry american students rebeling against their rich mummys and daddies.
Don't worry lad you'll grow out of it when you find a women and have a pup.

[quirk]

To believe what is written about Stalin by bourgeois historian would be the same as learning about the history of republicanism from a right wing loyalists. As Puddies has pointed out they have a reason to be biased. New information coming from the Soviet archives shows that the picture most people have of Stalin is completely flawed.

[broche]

to be honest yous would be bius in favour though

[Puddies]

Puddies i would be aswell getting my answers from paisley given the ****e you come away with.
One line answers from angry american students rebeling against their rich mummys and daddies.
Don't worry lad you'll grow out of it when you find a women and have a pup.I'm not going to respond to most of that but let's look back at the thread a bit. You gave your opinion on Stalin so I did ask a one line question, not answer, asking what made you come to that opinion. You responded and revealed that you got it from a book written by a right-wing pro-imperialist George W. Bush supporter who obviously isn't fond of socialism. I think its completely valid to compare a book written by Rummell on the USSR to Paisley's opinions on Republicanism.

[quirk]

no you have no clue. your trying to paint a hero as a communist and he was not a communist. and look at the date on that quote he was feeding the communists egos. and using some of their theorys does not make you communist. the best government is one who takes the good from everyones theorys.

Puddies posted a quote from Che stating that he was a communist. Have you any evidence to support your claim that he was feeding communists ego's or maybe a later quote from him claiming he wasn't a communist? If not then why make such an assertion. As for painting a hero as a communist well there were plenty of "hero's" who were communists and indeed there still are.

[Vox Populi]

1. Guevara was a Stalinist before 1959

Guevara was a die-hard Stalinist from well before the seizure of power in Cuba to his dying day.

Guevara told his family it was his experience in Guatemala in 1954, where he witnessed a CIA-backed coup, that he led him to become a “Communist”.

Guevara’s fellow motorcyclist Alberto Ganado later said that it was Stalin that Guevara “discovered” in the mid-fifties (Anderson pp.165-166, p.565).

In fact before his arrival in Guatemala, after witnessing the power of the United Fruit Company in Costa Rica, Guevara wrote to his aunt (December 10 1953) telling her that he had “sworn before a picture of our old, much lamented comrade Stalin that I will not rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated” (Castañeda p.62).

In 1955 while in Mexico he signed a letter to the same aunt “Stalin II” (Anderson p.167).

Guevara became a Stalinist at a time when thousands were becoming disillusioned with official “Communism”. He rejected Khrushchev’s speech in 1956 denouncing the crimes of Stalin as “imperialist propaganda” and defended the Russian invasion of Hungary that crushed the workers’ uprising there in the same year (Castañeda p.86).

After Guevara joined Fidel Castro’s guerrilla expedition to Cuba in 1956, the evidence suggests he established a close connection with the Cuban Stalinist party (known as the PSP) during the guerrilla struggle.

According to a book by based on an investigation of the Soviet archives, Guevara formally joined the PSP in 1957 (Fursenko and Naftali, One Hell of a Gamble: Khrushchev, Castro and Kennedy, 1958-1964).

Whether or not he was a member, we know Guevara played a central role in integrating PSP cadres into the July 26 Movement. In summer 1957 the PSP sent a young militant Pablo Ribalta to work with Guevara, and he was soon given responsibility for organising political education classes among the guerrillas (Anderson pp.296-297).

In a letter to another guerrilla leader [Daniel] dated December 14 1957, Guevara proclaimed that: “because of my ideological training I am one of those who believe that the solution to this world’s problems is to be found behind the so-called Iron Curtain” (Taibo p.154).

This is important because it shows that Guevara was a conscious protagonist for establishing a Stalinist state in Cuba before the guerrillas overthrew the dictator Batista in 1959.

-- http://www.workersliberty.org/node/3076

[KillinSnakes]

Puddies i would be aswell getting my answers from paisley given the ****e you come away with.
One line answers from angry american students rebeling against their rich mummys and daddies.
Don't worry lad you'll grow out of it when you find a women and have a pup.

This kind of personal abuse should not be tolerated on this forum.

I know puddies personally, he's even stayed at my place before, and he is not spoiled or rebeling against his parents, who are far from rich!

[redflag32]

So why moan about SF going the politicall route?

This shows your lack of listening abilities comrade, nobody is moaning about SF taking he political route,its their political opinion that i would have a problem with. Its not that its political,but what it intails that i "moan" about.

Because your 40 years behind at best?

So sharing power with an ideology that is sectarian,bigotted,pro imperialism and pro capitalism means you have progressed republicanism 40 years infront of what the RSM stands for? Get a grip mate, the SF strategy gives power to the most reactionary section of the protestant poeple,thats not progressive,its a complete sell out of the working class in the 6 counties,protestant and catholic.

And how the hell can you use the word politics while carrying the "Wee red book" about?

I take it you mean Socialism/Communism? Well its very easy actually,seen as those ideologies were founded on political ideas. How can you use the word "politics" when you identify with capitalism? Capitalism has spawned all the major world wars and kills thousands and thousands of children women and men through poverty and local wars every day. If you want to do a capitalism v communism death count fire away.


Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin.
Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

Whats a "****taker? haha Are you implying all commies are gay? Anyway i wont respond to this part of your thread as its just an uneducated rant. It only shows your lack of understanding of what you are "moaning" about. I dont expect everybody to agree with me or to identify with the class struggle,but those who shun it without ever studying it properly have no right to "moan" about those who discredit their particular political identity when they have studied it and who have clear and truthfull opinions for doing so.

[redflag32]

So why moan about SF going the politicall route? Because your 40 years behind at best?
And how the hell can you use the word politics while carrying the "Wee red book" about?
Commies have allways been run by madmen ****takers who kill a million people trying to grow a bag of spuds and smelt a million tons of steel and only manage to make a 1 ton steel statue of yer man lenin.
Communism is a great idea 150 years ago.

che guevera was a socialist not a communist.

Comrade,you cannot be a socialist and not a communist. Socialism is a stage towards communism. The most basic of books on the class struggle will tell you this. Communism is the next stage of socialism, you cannot stop the progress at socialism or it will degenerate.

[Rory O'Connor]

oh he stopped informing maybe they should give him a pat on the back and you support the WSM do you not find it ironic that a bunch of sponger students support the rights of workers most of you will probably be working for a multinational company in the 10 years anyway

I don't think that the INLA should "give him a pat on the back," but executing John Hogan wouldn't have gained them any support, nor would it discourage any potential informers from informing the RUC/PSNI or to any of the other Crown Forces about the INLA's activities, etc.

[Donnie]

Derry INLA uncover 'British agent'
Derry Journal

By Staff reporter
The 'Journal' can reveal that one of the INLA's most senior members in Derry has been working as a British agent for more than 20 years.
A source close to the INLA says it recently discovered the man has been passing information to both MI5 and police Special Branch since 1985.

It’s thought that the man, believed to be from the Greater Shantallow area of the city, was a central figure in the organisation throughout the 1980s and 1990s. As such, it’s understood he would have been aware of all INLA operations in the city.

The INLA source revealed that the man was a key member of the organisation until the late 1990s and, since then, had continued to be involved with the IRSP - the organisation’s political wing - and served at a high level in the party.

The source told the ‘Journal’: “We have just discovered an informer within the organisation. He has been passing information to the British security forces since 1985 and getting paid for it. He met with his MI5 and Special Branch handlers regularly, as often as every two weeks, to pass on information. He was in a central position within the INLA in the 1980s and would have known details of every operation taking place in the Derry area.

“He was a big figure within the INLA. In fact, he would have been a very central figure in the INLA up until eight or nine years ago. Since then he worked largely with the IRSP. We believe that, during this time, he continued to pass on low level intelligence on the activities of the IRSP. He was working for his handlers right up to when he was uncovered,” the source said.

Being ‘debriefed’

It’s suggested that the man is currently being “debriefed” by the INLA in Derry.

The
source added: “He is being very co-operative. He is giving a full account of the information he passed to his handlers.The debriefing could be a long process because he was passing information for such a long time and meeting his handlers so regularly.”

According to the INLA source, the man is not under any threat from the organisation. “He has nothing to fear from the INLA. He is co-operatiing with the republican socialist movement and there is no threat against him,” the source said.

A spokesperson for the IRSP condemned the recruitment of informers and encouraged anyone in a similar position to come forward.

“As a political party, we condemn any efforts by a foreign government to infiltrate our party. We would also encourage anyone else who may find themselves in a similar position of working for British intelligence to come forward and they will get a sympathetic ear from us.”

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Derry-INLA-uncover-39British-agent39.3241241.jp

This is ****ing Scandalous!

[ciaran_mcg]

He'll get told to leave the country, unless he has lost them weapons or members, Through jail or death.. If he's done anything less he'll be told to leave the country.

[Slemish]

He'll get told to leave the country, unless he has lost them weapons or members, Through jail or death.. If he's done anything less he'll be told to leave the country.

Your behind the times mate. The guy is long gone.

[RepublicanTom1916]

No one wants a tout he has the blood of INLA men on his hands he should be shot

[comrade jsams]

I agree he dose not deserve to live

[Ghostface]

strangle him. don't wast ammo on the prick.

[Vox Populi]

Are yous offering to do it yourself?

[East Tyrone]

I can picture a line of pimply nerds eager to beat him to death with a rubber chicken.

[Vox Populi]

I can picture a line of pimply nerds eager to beat him to death with a rubber chicken.Have you seen the World of Warcraft Southpark episode?

[East Tyrone]

Have you seen the World of Warcraft Southpark episode?
Aye, or the comic shop dude from the Simpsons
"I will smite you with my mighty chicken, foul fiend".

[ciaranxavier]

You, again, have no clue of what you're talking about.


"I am a Marxist-Leninist and I will be one until the last day of my life."

-Fidel Castro

not a communist, trying to follow their doctrine does not make you a communist. and can you get the date of that quote please.

[ciaranxavier]

Now arty, Russia became more industrialised at a faster rate than any other nation about in stalins rain. He also had the right idea concerning russian defence policy. He cannot be shunned for a few uncontrollable famines.

some of his theories were right but he was in no way a good leader to his people.

[Vox Populi]

not a communist, trying to follow their doctrine does not make you a communist. and can you get the date of that quote please.Marxism-Leninism is the guiding ideology for the attainment of Communism.

[ciaranxavier]

Marxism-Leninism is the guiding ideology for the attainment of Communism.

as it is for many socialists.

[Vox Populi]

as it is for many socialists.And what, does Fidel Castro believe what Cuba achieved in the 60s is the end of history? No, because he's a Communist and a member of the Communist Party of Cuba.

[ciaranxavier]

And what, does Fidel Castro believe what Cuba achieved in the 60s is the end of history? No, because he's a Communist and a member of the Communist Party of Cuba.

but as you can see cuba is not communist. what it was during the soviet reign it has wandered from.

[Vox Populi]

but as you can see cuba is not communist. what it was during the soviet reign it has wandered from.Cuba is Socialist, no one claims Cuba is communist. It never has been.

[ciaranxavier]

Cuba is Socialist, no one claims Cuba is communist. It never has been.

so though he holds a communist membership, and fidel has been known to support certain beliefs when its beneficial to him as in the beginning of the revolution he was no self proclaimed socialist. but as i was saying if he is communist then wouldnt he the person who makes the decisions be forming his country with a more communist model.

[Vox Populi]

Fidel's a communist.

Fidel's a former nationalist.

He met Che Guevara.

Fidel's brother was a Communist.

Fidel's opinions changed.

There's never been a communist country - and no country has claimed to be communist.

Cuba is socialist.

Socialism is the first stage on the way to Communism.

[ciaranxavier]

Fidel's a communist.

Fidel's a former nationalist.

He met Che Guevara.

Fidel's brother was a Communist.

Fidel's opinions changed.

There's never been a communist country - and no country has claimed to be communist.

Cuba is socialist.

Socialism is the first stage on the way to Communism.

russia claimed to be sovier. of course fidels opinions changed communism is a failed system, fidel is still a nationalist, cuba IS socialist, and communism is an impure form of socialism.

[redflag32]

"communism is an impure form of socialism"? Whoa WTF? Id love to see an explanation for that one.

[Vox Populi]

russia claimed to be sovier. of course fidels opinions changed communism is a failed system, fidel is still a nationalist, cuba IS socialist, and communism is an impure form of socialism.Russia never claimed to be Communist.

Where has Fidel declared in recent times that "Communism is a failed system"?

Communism isn't an impure form of Socialism, it's the next stage after Socialism.

Communism is stateless, socialism isn't.

[q9876]

Why has cuba never took the step to communism if its been a socialist country for so long ??

Communism is stateless, socialism isn't.
What do you mean ?

[ciaranxavier]

Russia never claimed to be Communist.

Where has Fidel declared in recent times that "Communism is a failed system"?

Communism isn't an impure form of Socialism, it's the next stage after Socialism.

Communism is stateless, socialism isn't.

Where has Fidel declared in recent times that "Communism is a failed system"?

in all his speechs nowadays he speaks of being socialist not communist though he isnt truly socialist for he rules the people as one entity.

Russia never claimed to be Communist.

well they were not socialists and if they wont admit it then someone has to give them a name.


Communism isn't an impure form of Socialism, it's the next stage after Socialism.


lol where did you hear that.

Communism is stateless, socialism isn't.

if communism is stateless there wouldnt have been the collapse of the soviet union.

[ciaranxavier]

"communism is an impure form of socialism"? Whoa WTF? Id love to see an explanation for that one.

id love to see an explanation for communism being the next step in socialism. other then a communist writers theorys.

[redflag32]

Why has cuba never took the step to communism if its been a socialist country for so long ??

Communism is stateless, socialism isn't.
What do you mean ?

Cuba has been kept in the third world because of trade restrictions put on it by the USA. It can not progress its development much further untill there are more countries willing to trade with it, and this isnt going to happen untill revolution happens in these countries and the right-wing propaganda is dismantled.

Socialism needs a state in order to keep the reactionaries from undoing the good work the revolution has achieved. This is one problem with venezuela's revolution, chavez is not being strict enough on the right-wing reactionaries who try and try to bring down democracy. He is afraid of seeming un-democratic. But the fact of the matter is that the revolution will need a state and an army to keep it in place,in any country. It needs to be in exsistence untill what we know as class's dissapear.This will probably take centuries so dont be expecting communism anytime soon. Socialism is just one more progressive step in human exsistence.

[redflag32]

id love to see an explanation for communism being the next step in socialism. other then a communist writers theorys.

WOW,your incredibly stupid. Are you 12? Your above statement doesnt make ANY sense. What your asking for is a right-wing person to speak for the merits of communism. Can you not see how stupid that statement is?

[ciaranxavier]

WOW,your incredibly stupid. Are you 12? Your above statement doesnt make ANY sense. What your asking for is a right-wing person to speak for the merits of communism. Can you not see how stupid that statement is?

no what im asking you is to give me a non-communists view on communists. whether it be a utopians perspective, capitalists perspective, anarchisms, social democratics, or straight up socialist. there are many differant political structures then communism and capitalism your the one whos 12 thinking in such a close minded manner. can you not see how stupid your statement is. communists arent the only ones who can write about communism. there are many unbiased opinions and if they contradict yours theyre capitalist? russia was communist and it failed. horribly. it failed to meet the needs of the people, to provide an equal voice for everyone, and failed to bring the rights of the people before the rights of the state so in no way could it be a more pure form of socialism.

[ciaranxavier]

Cuba has been kept in the third world because of trade restrictions put on it by the USA. It can not progress its development much further untill there are more countries willing to trade with it, and this isnt going to happen untill revolution happens in these countries and the right-wing propaganda is dismantled.

Socialism needs a state in order to keep the reactionaries from undoing the good work the revolution has achieved. This is one problem with venezuela's revolution, chavez is not being strict enough on the right-wing reactionaries who try and try to bring down democracy. He is afraid of seeming un-democratic. But the fact of the matter is that the revolution will need a state and an army to keep it in place,in any country. It needs to be in exsistence untill what we know as class's dissapear.This will probably take centuries so dont be expecting communism anytime soon. Socialism is just one more progressive step in human exsistence.

Cuba has been kept in the third world because of trade restrictions put on it by the USA. It can not progress its development much further untill there are more countries willing to trade with it, and this isnt going to happen untill revolution happens in these countries and the right-wing propaganda is dismantled.

cuba is unique as it isnt communism anymore, its not quite socialist but its achieved a balance. though a cab driver can make more then a doctor its obviously got loopholes which havent been addressed that being one among many. though in his rule he has come farther then anyone couldve imagined.

Socialism needs a state in order to keep the reactionaries from undoing the good work the revolution has achieved.

and the world will become communist overnight?? everything has to start somewhere.

This is one problem with venezuela's revolution, chavez is not being strict enough on the right-wing reactionaries who try and try to bring down democracy.

you cant pick and choose who deserves the right to have an opinion. no matter what their political beliefs are. its been proven time and time again (the irish being the best example) that you cannot force your ideas on the unwilling. you must work with everyone to make a system work. and your statement is kind of an irony, if he were to silence that group then he is no longer a democracy, he is a dictatorship for he would be singling out the ones who dont agree with his policys.

This will probably take centuries so dont be expecting communism anytime soon

ive seen it and ive seen it crumble. though you never know what those russians are up too.

[Hessian Peel]

The terms 'Socialist' and 'Socialism' are not very well defined and can have a wide variety of meanings. This is often a problem caused by our obsession with labelling and compartmentalising everything under the Sun. There are so many different trends of 'Socialism' it would take all day to list them off, so I won't even bother naming a few.

I guess the widely excepted definition of 'Socialism' is the Marxist-Leninist model which is a stage in the evolution of society and the development of Communism. Other 'Socialists' (such as Anarchists and Libertarian Communists) would reject this stage as unnecessary and that capitalism and the state should be destroyed simultaneously. My personal ideology would lie somewhere between these two tendencies.

That said; we can all agree that 'Socialism' is not what our friend Ciaranxavier here seems to think it is. Sweden is not 'Socialist'. The Soviet Union, China and Cuba were not Communist you silly person. How can you search for a definition of 'Socialism/Communism' without consulting the works of those who formulated the concepts behind these social and economic models?

[ciaranxavier]

The terms 'Socialist' and 'Socialism' are not very well defined and can have a wide variety of meanings. This is often a problem caused by our obsession with labelling and compartmentalising everything under the Sun. There are so many different trends of 'Socialism' it would take all day to list them off, so I won't even bother naming a few.

I guess the widely excepted definition of 'Socialism' is the Marxist-Leninist model which is a stage in the evolution of society and the development of Communism. Other 'Socialists' (such as Anarchists and Libertarian Communists) would reject this stage as unnecessary and that capitalism and the state should be destroyed simultaneously. My personal ideology would lie somewhere between these two tendencies.

That said; we can all agree that 'Socialism' is not what our friend Ciaranxavier here seems to think it is. Sweden is not 'Socialist'. The Soviet Union, China and Cuba were not Communist you silly person. How can you search for a definition of 'Socialism/Communism' without consulting the works of those who formulated the concepts behind these social and economic models?

marx and engels never used the words communist or socialist consistantly you should know that you silly person you. and of coarse socialism is the broad term and communism being a branch of socialism which failed. i mean you can give me your beautiful version of communism but the fact of the matter is the worlds already made its decision and its going to be awfully hard for anyone to get anywhere with communism attached to their name.

[quirk]

Should we allow republicanism to be defined by unionists loyalist or any other group or should it be defined by republicans? If it should be defined by republicans then why should communism not be defined by communists?

[comrade jsams]

I say hold a trial and if he is guilty than shoot him

[Hessian Peel]

marx and engels never used the words communist or socialist consistantly you should know that you silly person you.


Yes they did. Both Marx and Engels preferred the term Communist for the very reasons I have outlined above. It was to differentiate themselves from other trends of Socialism and the Social Democrats. The world hasn't 'decided' that what existed in the Soviet Union was Communism; just the pro-capitalist media and people (like yourself) who either no very little about the subject or are deliberately furthering the pro-capitalist agenda.

[ciaranxavier]

Yes they did. Both Marx and Engels preferred the term Communist for the very reasons I have outlined above. It was to differentiate themselves from other trends of Socialism and the Social Democrats. The world hasn't 'decided' that what existed in the Soviet Union was Communism; just the pro-capitalist media and people (like yourself) who either no very little about the subject or are deliberately furthering the pro-capitalist agenda.

Yes they did. Both Marx and Engels preferred the term Communist for the very reasons I have outlined above.

then you should do more reading as they never consistantly used either term.

The world hasn't 'decided' that what existed in the Soviet Union was Communism

yes it has when the bolsheviks changed their name to the communist party they effectively ruined the worlds perspective on communism.

just the pro-capitalist media and people (like yourself) who either no very little about the subject

because i dont agree with your theory i know little about the subject?? no i just choose to look at it differantly as trying to bring about a political structure with a name thats already been tainted i think would prove near impossible.

or are deliberately furthering the pro-capitalist agenda.

are you a conspiracy theorist??? this is ludicrous as i am not capitalist nor am i communist. im an undecided socialist. not undecided because i dont know who to support but because i havent decided which path of socialism is best for me.

[ciaranxavier]

Should we allow republicanism to be defined by unionists loyalist or any other group or should it be defined by republicans? If it should be defined by republicans then why should communism not be defined by communists?

i get what your saying quirk and i agree theyre allowed but i also think their opinions can be one sided. thats said there are many unbiased opinions on all forms of government that can be used as well.

[inla-supporter]

Everyones saying the damage done to fellow irps?
What about the ira and everyone else in general?
Who stuck in danny docherty and wullie fleming ambushed by the sas at gransha hospital maybe not that guy, maybe it was. It's not the point that he came forward or maybe hes been forced too or get a bullet? I think hes putting himself at the mercy of the media so everyone is watching it will have special branch out in choppers everywere watching to see if they can catch inla men going to plug him.

****ing 2 options! Let him spill the truth give up other touts,everything hes done the lot. Then banish him to england, nobody likes being forced from their comfort zone.
If he plays hard to get treat him the way the sas did to tout victim willie fleming 60 bullets through his body http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Fleming_(Irish_republican

This is the second magor tout thing in derry county involving irps last year a man was caught (a gangster/druggie) who had been recruiting other high profile touts and hoods saying they where a asu of the inla he never got killed that much i remember i think he was ordered out, if people are doing things like this using the different groups names to commit crime it shows how ****ing much an influence the groups "don't have" in the communities, no wonder hoods are running riot.

You are refferring to Brian McGlynn and he was executed.