US Army Lures Foreigners with Promise of Citizenship

[Caoimhain]

US Army Lures Foreigners with Promise of Citizenship

By Cordula Meyer in Washington

10/22/07 "SPIEGEL" -- -- -More than 30,000 foreign troops are enlisted in the US Army, many of them serving in Iraq. Their reward for risking their lives for their adopted country is US citizenship.

When Anna Maria Clarke, 26, was a teenager living in the western German city of Mannheim, she already had a weakness for smart uniforms, particularly on American soldiers, and for war movies like "Full Metal Jacket." It was an attraction that Clarke, a German citizen, felt early on and still feels today.

The parents of 25-year-old Julieta Ortiz immigrated to the United States from Mexico City, dirt-poor but ambitious. They worked hard picking strawberries in California, determined that their daughter would have a better life. Four years ago, Julieta suddenly found a way to that better life -- a difficult path, but one that would lift her out of the poverty of her childhood.

Jose Figueira, 31, spent much of his life listening to his father proudly recount his experiences as a soldier in the Portuguese army. Figueira, who grew up in Massachusetts, yearned to have something he could be just as proud of. "I wanted to prove that I'm a good citizen, that I'm willing to stand up for everything I love about this country."

They may have different reasons for joining the US Armed Forces, but all three are now among the more than 30,000 foreign soldiers fighting for America -- not as Americans, but as a Mexican, a Portuguese and even a German. Without its foreign soldiers, the United States would have trouble coming up with enough troops to meet the demand in Iraq. The foreigners, for their part, take the dangerous job mainly for its biggest reward: US citizenship.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, the United States has granted US citizenship to 32,500 foreign soldiers. In July 2002, US President George W. Bush issued an executive order to expand existing legislation to offer a fast track to citizenship to foreigners who agree to fight for the US Armed Forces. About 8,000 non-Americans have joined the US military every year since then.

The foreigners already represent 5 percent of all recruits. They even make up the majority of soldiers from some New York and Los Angeles neighborhoods. Four years and 3,800 US deaths after the beginning of the Iraq campaign, fewer and fewer American citizens are willing to fight in a war opposed by a majority of the US population. But despite the Iraq war's lack of popularity, US generals are demanding 180,000 new recruits a year.

The Pentagon already spends $3.2 billion a year on recruitment, even sending its recruiters to high schools to persuade 17-year-olds still a year away from graduation to enlist.

The US military learned long ago that foreign recruits are often the most dedicated Americans. Anna Maria from Mannheim, looking girlish with her red ponytail, had always dreamed about the US military. She was attracted to the American soldiers living in Germany, who seemed so relaxed about life. When she fell in love, it was always with an American GI. Her soft spot earned her the nickname "Ami-Anna" ("Yankee Anna"). Of course, she married a GI. She began secretly watching her husband's fellow soldiers doing their push-ups and sit-ups in the morning. Then she started exercising, lost 25 kilograms (55 pounds), passed the admission test and survived US Army boot camp in Texas.

Over 100 Germans

Now Airman First Class Clarke works in the human resources department at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. But the reality of the war shows up on her desk sometimes. Part of Clarke's job is to make sure that the bodies of soldiers killed in Iraq make it home as complete as possible.

Of course, Clarke expects to be sent to Iraq herself at any time. She says that she would even have enlisted without the promise of her new US citizenship, but it's important to her nonetheless. "After all," she says, "I could be killed for this country. It's nice to know that it's actually my country." There are currently 128 Germans serving in the US military -- more than from any other European country except Great Britain.

Most foreign recruits come from Latin America and the Caribbean. Latino rights groups in the United States, fearful that immigrants are being used as cannon fodder, object to the somewhat shady practice of offering citizenship in return for military service. But it happens to be a fact of life "that immigrants always have the more difficult jobs," says military expert Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution. He is more concerned about the fact that many US citizens are already serving their third tours of duty at the front. Increased recruitment of foreigners, says O'Hanlon, could help lighten the burden.

O'Hanlon has even proposed recruiting potential new citizens for military service in selected countries, like the Philippines or Uganda, a proposal the Pentagon is considering.

Military recruiters have been particularly successful in immigrant communities. "Immigrants want to prove to American society that they are especially patriotic," says Bill Galvin of the Center on Conscience and War, a liberal anti-war organization. "The recruitment officers take advantage of this and promise citizenship in return." Patriotism was a strong motivator for Jose Figueira to join the US military. "I wanted to prove that the Americans could trust me," he says. "I wanted to prove that I belong here."

Sergeant Figueira, a member of the National Guard, is no military buff. He's realized, after serving in Iraq, that the reality of war is more than he expected. He talks about Baghdad, about roadside bombs and snipers. He also talks about the many hours he spent under enemy fire repairing the vehicles in his convoy after a bomb attack. He saw soldiers being killed, and the tears come to his eyes when he talks about the experience. Nevertheless, he says, he would return to Iraq at any time.

It's people like Figueira who demonstrate that immigrants "are indispensable for the military," says Margaret Stock, a lawyer and lecturer at the legendary US Military Academy at West Point. "They are more successful and they're less likely to give up," she adds. Besides, immigrants are a good investment for the military. "You get more bang for your buck," says Stock.

It is for these reasons that the military is now deliberately targeting immigrants for recruitment, especially those who speak Arabic or Farsi -- but also Latinos, the largest immigrant group in the United States. Corporal Julieta Ortiz, Mexican by birth, joined the Marines "because I wanted to make something out of myself and because citizenship means a lot to me." Being a US citizen helps her advance in her career, because, as she says, "I couldn't become an officer" as a foreigner in the US military. She is now an architecture student and wants to work for the government in the future. She glosses over the potential risks of serving in Iraq. "It's worth it to me," says Ortiz.

"People with no prospects see the military as a way out of poverty," says Jorge Mariscal, a professor of Latino Studies at the University of California, San Diego. The uniform means money -- money for college and money to pay bills. "Immigrants are taken advantage of," says Bill Galvin, who is against the war and advises soldiers in Washington who want to get out of the military before their contracts are up. "Those who have no other options are the most likely to end up in combat."

A US Flag, and a Certificate of Citizenship

One of them was Juan Alcantara, 22, the son of immigrants from the Dominican Republic who grew up in New York's Washington Heights neighborhood.

Alcantara survived his first year in Iraq, but then the recent troop surge began and, under an executive order issued by President Bush, Corporal Alcantara was told he would be kept on in Iraq for another six months. He had been scheduled to return home on June 28. His girlfriend gave birth to their daughter on June 29. On Aug. 6, a bomb exploded while Alcantara was searching a house in the town of Baqubah, north of Baghdad. Alcantara was killed in the blast.

His mother, Maria, now sits in her apartment in Washington Heights, wiping the tears from her eyes. She once told her son that the three most important things in life are: "God, family and your country."

She says that the army promised Juan "up to $50,000 for college, plus a $20,000 bonus, his choice of any of 200 jobs and a full-time position." He filled out the application on the plastic-covered couch in her living room. The mother says that she wept the first time her son came home in his new dress uniform. "He was so elegant, so handsome."

She prayed when he was ordered to go to Iraq. Was Corporal Juan Alcantara really convinced that he was defending his country? The mother nods. She truly wants to believe all the things the officers told her during the memorial service and at the funeral, when they handed her a US flag, the Purple Heart, an award for wounded soldiers -- and Juan's certificate of citizenship. Everyone at the ceremony assured her that her son was a hero.

Juan Alcantara is the 103rd foreign soldier to become a US citizen posthumously -- after dying in the Iraq war. His mother keeps the framed certificate and the letters of condolence in a blue plastic bag.

[Jimmy Blackthorn]

They did the same thing during the Civil War. Mostly Irish immigrants signed up then. Then they started drafting Irish immigrants which led to the draft riots in New York.

[Caoimhain]

That's an interesting bit of info I wasn't aware of. Although it does make a lot of sense.

[KillinSnakes]

reminds me of ancient rome...

[quirk]

A Way Out of the Shadows for Immigrants?
U.S. Says: Become Cannon Fodder

Jesus Suarez del Solar died on March 27, 2003, when he stepped on a U.S. cluster bomb in Iraq, where he was a Marine lance corporal. His father, Fernando Suarez, has become an outspoken anti-war activist. Fernando was thrown out of the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York for holding up a sign that said, “Bush Lied, My Son Died.”

Fernando Suarez says that his son was approached by U.S. military recruiters when he was 13—and living in Tijuana, Mexico. Jesus’s parents, thinking that he would get a better education in the U.S., sold their home and laundry business and moved to Escondido, just over the border in California. Jesus enrolled in a high school known for high academic achievement, but the recruiters talked him into transferring to a school for “troubled teens,” where the requirements for graduating were lower and he could finish earlier.

Jesus was 17 when he graduated. But he was still too young to enlist on his own, so his father co-signed the enlistment papers. Jesus was only 20 when he died in Iraq, fighting in the Bush regime’s immoral and illegitimate war.

Fernando talks about the way the U.S. military recruiters lured his son, and how they go after other youth in Mexico and the barrios in the U.S. “This, in my opinion, is very immoral.”

Under the pressure of finding a way to survive while living in the shadows, many immigrant families have been faced with this dilemma of sending their kids to war in exchange for possibly getting legal status, and perhaps avoid being snatched up on the streets, at home, or at work and getting deported.

What kind of a system is it that forces people into such cruel choices? Look at how the U.S. rulers, and other imperialist powers, roam all over the world, plundering resources and super-exploiting billions of people—including children forced into slave labor—and enforcing all this with brutal military threats, invasions, and occupations. These imperialist dominators distort and ruin economies and crush people’s lives—like in Mexico, where penetration by U.S. capital has devastated agriculture and driven millions of people to desperately seek work across the border in order to feed themselves and their families. Then, when these immigrants make the often-deadly trek across the border and arrive in the U.S., they are hounded by armed immigration police and reactionary vigilantes, and demonized as “criminals” and even “threats to national security.”

And now, these same rulers who forced people into this situation offer a “way out” for immigrant youth: to risk their lives brutalizing and killing people in Iraq and elsewhere who find themselves in exactly the same situation! Like Jesus Suarez, these youth are told by the U.S. rulers: If you sign up for the our military and go off to fight for the empire, we’ll consider you eligible to become “good American citizens.”

The “Dream Act”

The difficulties in recruiting enough new soldiers into their military has led the U.S. rulers to expand their recruitment among oppressed people—even those who are in the U.S. “illegally.” One track the government is pursuing is to revive a provision of the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill (CIRB), which failed to pass the Senate in June 2007. The provision, the so-called “Dream Act” (or Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act), is mostly known for its offer to open up a path to legalization, and maybe even citizenship status, to undocumented immigrants who attend college and earn a two-year degree or finish two years toward a bachelors degree.

But there is a lesser known part of the Dream Act—it offers the same possibility for legalization for undocumented immigrants who join the armed forces for at least two years and who have been living in the U.S. for at least six years prior to that. This legislation has now been attached to the defense bill in the Congress, which will be voted on soon. Illinois Senator **** Durbin, a co-sponsor of the amendment, said it was appropriate to attach the Dream Act to the defense bill because this would “address a very serious recruitment crisis that faces our military.”

On Sunday, October 14, the Chicago Tribune published an editorial entitled “A recruiter’s dream,” which says: “Serve in the military; get a leg up on citizenship.” This same editorial says: “The Army Times reports that military leaders in charge of recruiting and personnel policy called the measure ‘very appealing.’”

In June, Durbin said, “It turns out that many in the Department of Defense believe, as I do, that the Dream Act is an important part of making certain we have talented young men and women ready to serve in our military.” The Dream Act has broad bipartisan support in Congress.

While the U.S. imperialists have always lured immigrants to serve as cannon fodder for their wars with the promise of giving them citizenship, this most recent push to ensnare hundreds of thousands of youth into the war machine began shortly after 9/11 when George Bush signed Executive Order 13296, which promised to shorten the time immigrants have to wait for citizenship if they serve in the armed forces.

According to the Pentagon, there are now 35,000 non-citizens in the U.S. military, and about 8,000 join each year to try to take this promised path to citizenship. The government estimates that if the Dream Act were to be passed, there would be about 750,000 undocumented youth eligible to be recruited. (The Boston Globe, June 16, 2007)

Even as the rantings of those like Lou Dobbs and Congressman (and presidential candidate) Tancredo are blasted over the airwaves, labeling “illegal aliens” as “criminals” and worse, the thought of hundreds of thousands of young people available to slaughter and die for this empire has made even those who have opposed any path to legalization have second thoughts. The Boston Globe quotes retired Air Force General Thomas McInerney, identified as a “conservative commentator and military analyst,” saying that the Dream Act “…is not perfect, but it is far better than some of the ways they are talking about granting illegals new status here.”

Recruiters Target Oppressed Youth

Whatever happens with the Dream Act, military recruiters are already heavily targeting youth in immigrant and oppressed communities. On October 15, the Chicago Public Schools commissioned the first public school run by the U.S. Marines. A few days later, Chicago officials announced that an Air Force academy high school would open in 2009. Chicago already has the highest number of junior cadet programs in the country. More than 11,000 students are enrolled in the district’s five military academies. Most of these are in low-income, oppressed communities where there are large concentrations of immigrants.

In Los Angeles, another city that the armed forces have targeted for its large Latino population, Arlene Inouye, a teacher at Garfield High School in East Los Angeles, says, “It is common knowledge that recruiters offer green cards [permanent resident status]” to youth who enlist in the military.

Recruiting U.S. Mercenaries Worldwide

These cold-blooded calculations of recruiting non-U.S. citizens are not just limited to those living in the U.S. These imperialists want to be the new Rome. They are envisioning a kind of “foreign legion” to complement the mercenary armies like Blackwater that they already employ in many parts of the world. Following in the footsteps of the Romans, who took conquered people to fight in different lands; or the French, with their infamous Foreign Legion; or the British, who enlisted Nepalese soldiers called Gurkhas, to serve in their army—today the U.S. is attempting to forge an army out of its colonized people to fight on many fronts.

On October 19, 2006, the Washington Post published an article by Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Michael O’Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, who proposed such a plan. They wrote: “Despite growing anti-Americanism, U.S. citizenship is still one of the world’s most precious commodities, so there should be no shortage of volunteers. Since proficiency in English would presumably be important for those joining the armed forces, we might focus on South Asia, anglophone Africa, and parts of Latin America, Europe and East Asia (the Philippines would be a natural recruiting ground) where English is common as a second language. These regions have more than 2 billion people, tens of millions of whom reach military age each year.”

This is the thinking of people who want an unchallenged and unchallengeable empire and have declared they are waging an endless war to achieve it.

[Takeshi]

This is nothing that is new to the Iraq war. The people referred to in this article are Legal Permanent Residents, who have already been granted the right to live permanently in the US. Legal permanent residents (greencard holders) in the US have always been eligible to enlist in the military.

Under the pressure of finding a way to survive while living in the shadows, many immigrant families have been faced with this dilemma of sending their kids to war in exchange for possibly getting legal status,

This is just an outright lie. To enlist in the military, you already have to be a legal resident with a greencard. You can't enlist if you're illegal, in the US on a work or student visa.

[quirk]

Then how come the article reports that Juan Alcantara is the 103rd foreign soldier to become a US citizen posthumously -- after dying in the Iraq war. His mother keeps the framed certificate and the letters of condolence in a blue plastic bag.

[Finny]

This is just an outright lie. To enlist in the military, you already have to be a legal resident with a greencard. You can't enlist if you're illegal, in the US on a work or student visa.


That is incorrect.

A Stunning Disclosure on Illegals in the Military
By Matthew Dodd

Every now and then, I read or hear something that just stops me dead in my tracks. Sometimes I break out in laughter, sometimes I scream out in anguish, and sometimes I break down and feel like crying.

On rare occasions, I find myself with all those reactions. On very rare occasions, those reactions are almost lost in a cacophony of a multitude of rapid-fire involuntary reactions that include pride, relief, anger, frustration, motivation, inspiration and blatant disbelief. An article in The Denver Post on Feb. 24 that the U.S. military does not know the citizenship status of 16,031 active-duty military personnel provided me with my latest "very rare occasion."

In a recent article ("The Illegal Immigration Threat," DefenseWatch, Jan. 14, 2004), I talked about a 19-year old illegal alien who used a bogus green card to enlist in the Army, and how the Army was going to help facilitate getting him citizen status. (The Army's efforts did result in that soldier being sworn in as a U.S. citizen.) Little did I know at the time that that soldier was literally just the latest tip on a monolithic iceberg.

Let me share with you excerpts from the Denver Post article and my varied reactions to them:

The Denver Post article reported:

"[T]he citizenship of 16,031 members of the Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines is listed as 'unknown.' That's about one in 100 active-duty military members who might be U.S. citizens, legal immigrants - or just about anybody else."

Reaction: I am stunned, completely dumbfounded. I do not know what is worse: the fact that we have so many "unknowns" serving, or that they are serving despite the fact that we apparently have reasonably accurate statistics about them.

Think about the logic trail for a moment. For each case, someone knew enough about the individual to decide that he or she was an "unknown," someone had to enter the "unknown" data into some sort of database, someone had to be responsible for gathering that data, someone had to need that data for some reason (or else why would we track the data in the first place?), so someone had to see these staggering "unknown" totals, yet nobody apparently cared enough about the potential threat of these "unknowns" in our post-9/11 world until the Denver Post reporter showed up and found out. Continuing:

"U.S. military officials say they are shoring up defenses against illegal immigrants and others who may misrepresent themselves and join the armed services."
Reaction: If we are "shoring up defenses," that means that we recognize a vulnerability in our systems. Who came up with these systems in the first place? Who had the position, authority, and responsibility for the integrity of those systems? Why was not anything done about a serious problem that has been around for a long, long time? Continuing again:

"The Army has the highest number of unknowns - 9,055. The Navy has 6,531, the Air Force 444, the Marines one. Overall, 1,366,032 U.S. citizens and 35,662 legal immigrants serve in the U.S. military."

Reaction: As a career Marine officer, I am damn proud that the Marine Corps only has one "unknown" (which is one too many) and for the fact that the Corps has met its recruiting goals for over 100 straight months. I am also scared and disgusted to read how the U.S. military has enough "unknowns" to man a standard Marine division. The article goes on:

"The case of an Army private from Mexico, who enlisted using a fake green card and then served in Iraq, suggests some of the unknowns could be illegal immigrants. The military has no set procedure for handling these cases. U.S. congressional leaders are looking into the matter ... Some experts see a security risk. Military officials say they've had few problems so far, but the 9/11 terrorist attacks raised concerns."

Reaction: I believe it is safe to say that at least some of the unknowns are illegal immigrants. The military does have a set procedure for handling illegal and fraudulent enlistments; it is called discharge proceedings. I do not consider myself an expert, and I hope we do not need experts to see a security risk of having undocumented persons in our military ranks. Lastly, someone needs to fire those military officials whose concerns after the 9/11-raised terrorist attacks have resulted in only identifying an unacceptable amount of "unknowns" in our ranks. Then the article notes:

"Military officials check birth certificates, green cards or Social Security numbers to verify whether new recruits are legally in the country, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Jane Campbell, a U.S. Defense Department spokeswoman ... 'We hope to enhance those in the future, and are looking to do that in coordination with other government agencies,' she said. 'We want to make the process better.' Among new military initiatives: Start checking Social Security numbers given by recruits - as diligent employers sometimes do."

Reaction: How can someone have the guts to say that what we are doing allows us to "verify whether new recruits are legally in the country," when we have over 16,000 "unknown" service members already? I am sure glad to be part of a 21st century transforming military that comes up with such out-of-the-box security ideas like becoming more like diligent civilian employers and actually start checking Social Security numbers given by recruits! Maybe we can also just ask the recruits if they are illegal aliens. But, I wonder if that is a violation of another "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. The article continues:

"Data on citizenship in the military, provided by the Army, comes from September 2003. Military officials were unable to explain why the citizenship of so many is hazy. 'Of the number we have that are unknowns, I'm sure that some are citizens and some may not be citizens,' said Lt. Col. Stan Heath, spokesman for the U.S. Army Human Resources Command ... 'We just don't know' how many may be illegal, Heath said. 'We're trying to clean up the database to make sure we have a good accountability. We are working on it.'

He downplayed security worries. 'I haven't heard of any incident where a soldier of unknown origin has done something to be concerned about.'"

Reaction: Why talk to an Army spokesman about how "unknowns" get into the Army, instead of talking to a Marine spokesman about how "unknowns" do not get into the Marine Corps? If the reporter recognized "unknowns" as an issue that needed to be reported on, why did he choose to focus more on the problem vice the solution? I am sorry, but I now have absolutely no respect for the incompetent U.S. Army Human Resources Command. Lastly, Lt. Col. Heath's complacency about the potential threat posed by undocumented persons in the United States is eerily reminiscent of the mindset that helped permit the 9/11 attacks against our homeland. The article then states:

"Illegal immigrants are common in the United States - the government estimates there are more than 8 million - and institutions struggle to adapt. U.S. law bars employers from knowingly hiring the undocumented ... Yet 'with regard to homeland security and terrorism, it's pretty obvious that this is a critical kind of position. You should want to know the status of who is serving in the military' [said immigration scholar Noah Pickus, director of the Institute for Emerging Issues at North Carolina State University]."

Reaction: Yeah, I feel real secure knowing there are more than 8 million illegal aliens in my country. Well, Mr. Pickus gets my M.O.T.O. award (Master Of The Obvious) for seeing the connection between illegal aliens and homeland security. In case anyone was wondering, you do not need any advanced degrees from any university, nor should you have to consider the threat to homeland security from illegal aliens as an "emerging issue." The article then reveals:

"U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials defer to the military in handling illegal immigrants. 'If a military branch decides not to prosecute an individual for fraudulent entry, then they are considered eligible' to become citizens, Homeland Security spokesman Chris Bentley said."

Reaction: The law bars employers from knowingly hiring the undocumented, but does it allow employers to continue to keep the undocumented on their payrolls after they discover their illegal status? I learn something new every day: I did not know the military was in the decision-making process for immigration issues. When Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge talks about the need for increased cooperation among federal, state and local agencies to increase our homeland security, I do not think he had envisioned such "helpful" cooperation. The article continues:

"By May, military officials should begin new checks on the immigration status of recruits, said Gaylan Johnson, spokesman for the U.S. Military Entrance Processing Command... In the future, recruiters will conduct 'prescreening.' Then other federal authorities will conduct background reviews including electronic cross-checking of names and Social Security numbers with the federal Social Security administration, Johnson said... A better system has been in the works 'for years,' he said. 'It got accelerated after 9/11.' "

Reaction: In my opinion, the "future" Mr. Johnson described should already be history. Yeah, 9/11 really accelerated his "better system." And to think I thought it was slow.

After reading and reflecting on the Denver Post article, I found myself exhausted - mentally, physically, and emotionally drained. The threat of illegal aliens in our country and in our military is serious, and so is the unnecessary risk of literally being stopped dead in our complacent tracks.
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Defensewatch_030104_Illegals,00.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a0_1192120263

There is a reason why Army of One was known as Army of Juan with in the ranks of the US Army.

[ciaranxavier]

This is nothing that is new to the Iraq war. The people referred to in this article are Legal Permanent Residents, who have already been granted the right to live permanently in the US. Legal permanent residents (greencard holders) in the US have always been eligible to enlist in the military.



This is just an outright lie. To enlist in the military, you already have to be a legal resident with a greencard. You can't enlist if you're illegal, in the US on a work or student visa.

a greencard isnt citizenship its a temporary work visa for foreigners and once it runs out you either get out or start hiding. i work with someone who had to come to canada because they wouldnt give him a citizenship and they wouldnt renew his greencard status, so now hes living here but hes much happier. but back to what i was trying to stress GREENCARD HOLDERS ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS. theyre just cheap temporary labor.

[Finny]

Well to be fair, there are two "Green Cards". One that refers to immigration process of becoming a permanent resident and the Permanent Resident Card which makes you a Lawful Permanent Resident.

As I am a LPR myself.

[ciaranxavier]

Well to be fair, there are two "Green Cards". One that refers to immigration process of becoming a permanent resident and the Permanent Resident Card which makes you a Lawful Permanent Resident.

As I am a LPR myself.

your either a citizen of america or a lawful permanent citizen? what does that mean. something like you cant run for president? or is there more to it?

[Finny]

To become a Citizen of the USA, you have to be a lawful permanent resident at the time of filing for Citizenship. Then you become a US Citizen. The only difference between a Lawful Permanent Resident and US Citizen is that a LPR can't vote in Federal Elections ( i.e. Congressional or Presidential elections).


You have to be born in the United States of America (Birthright Citizenship) to be President of the United States.

I am in the process of becoming a US Citizen more out of convience then any other reason. Its better to have the Citizenship then be deported to the UK for your political believes.

[ciaranxavier]

To become a Citizen of the USA, you have to be a lawful permanent resident at the time of filing for Citizenship. Then you become a US Citizen. The only difference between a Lawful Permanent Resident and US Citizen is that a LPR can't vote in Federal Elections ( i.e. Congressional or Presidential elections).


You have to be born in the United States of America (Birthright Citizenship) to be President of the United States.

I am in the process of becoming a US Citizen more out of convience then any other reason. Its better to have the Citizenship then be deported to the UK for your political believes.

hey man im all for you getting a full citizenship how else are you guys gonna get that bush party out of office. i mean we could all hope for a draft to catch his ears and carry him away but thats just wishful thinking. the american public has to wake up and kick out the republicans.

[Finny]

Bush and Clinton are all the same. the Democratic Party and the Republican Party in the US are the same 2 wings on the same bird.

[ciaranxavier]

Bush and Clinton are all the same. the Democratic Party and the Republican Party in the US are the same 2 wings on the same bird.

good point. i always wondered why theres only 2 partys in the US?? it doesnt make sense to me why someone wouldnt create another party. can anyone shed some light on this?

[Finny]

There are 3rd parties in the US but none of them get the Media attention or even the backing of Mega Corps. Its hard to run in the US for an office without money. This Presidential Election coming up could run into 500 million dollars just to campaign.

It's about keeping those elites in power. Something that annoys me to death.

[ciaranxavier]

There are 3rd parties in the US but none of them get the Media attention or even the backing of Mega Corps. Its hard to run in the US for an office without money. This Presidential Election coming up could run into 500 million dollars just to campaign.

It's about keeping those elites in power. Something that annoys me to death.

no doubt.

[Takeshi]

That is incorrect.
I talked about a 19-year old illegal alien who used a bogus green card to enlist in the Army.

He used a bogus green card to enlist. Someone committing fraud doesn't change the fact that only permanent residents and citizens are allowed to enlist in the military. I tried to enlist while my green card application was being processed, and I was refused due to the fact that I was in the country on a non-immigrant K1 visa. I had to wait until my application was approved and I had actually received my card before I could go to entrance processing, take my physical and sign my contract.

[CHISHTI786]

I wonder how many sons/daughters of senators are in Iraq...and i don't mean as business advisors. I wonder if mr blair's kids are gonna go? Or is it just the same old way that working class people are slaughtered so the elite can become richer. Definition of a bayonet - a weopon with a worker on either end!

[CHISHTI786]

Takeshi my young friend why would you want to fight for george bush and the neo con terrorists? What have the innocent iraqi's/afghani's ever done to you? This is a republican site and you won't find people here who support imperialism.

You're a young guy and there is so much you can do with your life so why waste it - so bush's family have their oil secured or for **** cheney's haliburton group to earn billions in reconstruction contracts?

I hate the foreign, and harsh domestic, policy of the USA but the people are good and the country is great...is there nothing else you could do to earn a crust?

I take it you're irish or of irish descent so you really understand the pain of having your homeland occupied, your people slaughtered and your freedom stolen so why would you want to perpetrate these crimes upon others? When the oppressed becomes the oppressor it is a sad state of affairs.

Please reconsider your career so you don't become another statistic or add to the million iraqi statistics.

I'm not having a go - this is a heart felt plea.

[CHISHTI786]

Go on to you tube and type this -Bush & Blairs Doomed Crusade For Iraqi Oil -

Please reconsider

[ciaranxavier]

He used a bogus green card to enlist. Someone committing fraud doesn't change the fact that only permanent residents and citizens are allowed to enlist in the military. I tried to enlist while my green card application was being processed, and I was refused due to the fact that I was in the country on a non-immigrant K1 visa. I had to wait until my application was approved and I had actually received my card before I could go to entrance processing, take my physical and sign my contract.

why the hell would you want to go to iraq to fight a tribal war?

[Pádraig Mac Piarais]

I had to wait until my application was approved and I had actually received my card before I could go to entrance processing, take my physical and sign my contract.


Irish Republicanism and US Imperialism are not compatible. How can you want an independent and sovereign Ireland while supporting the occupation of other nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Takeshi]

Irish Republicanism and US Imperialism are not compatible. How can you want an independent and sovereign Ireland while supporting the occupation of other nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan?

If there was a united Ireland, and loyalist terrorist groups were trying to violently undermine that government, there may be a need for outside military assistance. That's exactly what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are both sovereign nations with democratically elected governments, who have foreign troops in their country with their approval.

I think maybe it's a basic difference of perception of the issue, but how is removing two dictatorships and helping put in place democratically elected governments anything like imperialism? I see there actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan as being in line with Irish Republicanism. If we wish for a free Ireland, then why should we deny it to anyone else?

[FreeSouthCarolina]

I wonder how many sons/daughters of senators are in Iraq...and i don't mean as business advisors. I wonder if mr blair's kids are gonna go? Or is it just the same old way that working class people are slaughtered so the elite can become richer. Definition of a bayonet - a weopon with a worker on either end!

There is no draft for this conflict. There is no need. Every soldier/sailor/marine/airman knows full well when he signs up that he/she has the responsibility of fighting the enemy of the U.S. when he/she is deployed. He/she also knows full well that once deployed, they have a valid chance of dying while on duty. Take that bolshevik bull**** out of your ass hole for once and realize who the enemy is. If classes mean so much to you, and you hate the upperclass with such vivid hatred, remember that over 2 thousand American workers were killed by that Radical Islamic Camel**** on 9/11/01. That Camel****'s home base was in countries that tolerated extremism just like Iraq and Afghanistan. Those countries were just the first 2 on the list, Uncle Sam has a list of all good little countries and there are still quite a few Middle Eastern countries that are getting some explosive coal in their stockings.

Irish Republicanism and US Imperialism are not compatible. How can you want an independent and sovereign Ireland while supporting the occupation of other nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan?

So to state the most blatantly obvious, no one is occupying those nations. You call chasing a bunch of camel****(The radical ragheads) out of those nations so their people can live in peace and without oppression, occupying and imperialism? I call it a favor. Imperialism would be taking over their country and adding the state of Iraq to the 50 states (like the U.S. did with South Carolina). Your use of propaganda terminology sounds all revolutionary, but the definitions of those words don't hold up to the situation.

Takeshi my young friend why would you want to fight for george bush and the neo con terrorists? What have the innocent iraqi's/afghani's ever done to you? This is a republican site and you won't find people here who support imperialism.

You're a young guy and there is so much you can do with your life so why waste it - so bush's family have their oil secured or for **** cheney's haliburton group to earn billions in reconstruction contracts?

I hate the foreign, and harsh domestic, policy of the USA but the people are good and the country is great...is there nothing else you could do to earn a crust?

I take it you're irish or of irish descent so you really understand the pain of having your homeland occupied, your people slaughtered and your freedom stolen so why would you want to perpetrate these crimes upon others? When the oppressed becomes the oppressor it is a sad state of affairs.

Please reconsider your career so you don't become another statistic or add to the million iraqi statistics.

I'm not having a go - this is a heart felt plea.

First off, ever seen one of their beheadings buddy? One of their beheadings of an innocent worker class man? I have, I saw the whole god damn thing and I have never puked that much in my life.

Imagine sitting on your knees infront of a video camera with your arms and legs tied. The masked men behind you push you down to your right side and hold you down, while another uses about a 3 inch blade, pretty much a medium sized pocketknife, with a sawing motion slicing through your neck and feeling every bit of it until you either pass out or he gets to your spine.

You want to support that camel****? Go ahead, its a free world for now. But don't you ever compare that camel**** to the heroes and heroins of the IRA. Don't you ever compare this struggle for independence, liberty, and freedom, to their struggle to wipe every infadel(Including you) off the face of God's Green earth.

Oh and..

What have the innocent iraqi's/afghani's ever done to you?

What are we doing to the innocent ones?

This is a republican site and you won't find people here who support imperialism

Your right, not many people in general support imperialism. Too bad there is no imperialism going on here. He will find people who support those who are taking on this camel**** head on in their own turf. After all he found me.

You're a young guy and there is so much you can do with your life so why waste it

To protect his people, his family, the almighty "Working class" that y'all love to talk about, from the likes of ruthless and twisted murderers like the Islamic extremists.

you really understand the pain of having your homeland occupied

Yes, and the joy of having it liberated from camel ****.

your people slaughtered

When were the Iraqi people slaughtered? I can tell you that those Islamic Extremists slaughter alot of Muslims.

your freedom stolen

Is that why they have more freedoms and rights then they did under Saddam Hussein and the Taliban?

Please reconsider your career so you don't become another statistic or add to the million iraqi statistics.

Is that why there have been under 4,000 U.S. casualties as of yet?

this is a heart felt plea.

Yea, way too much heart, not that much brain.

To Takeshi: I guess your also trying to figure out when wanting a free an independent Ireland became an issue exclusive for Bolsheviks. Good luck to you man, I take it that your in the U.S. Army. I'd just like to tell you that I really appreciate your service and so do so many decent Americans from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

[BunyipDude]

To Takeshi: I guess your also trying to figure out when wanting a free an independent Ireland became an issue exclusive for Bolsheviks.

Disliking American imperialism is hardly territory exclusive to the Bolsheviks. Further, many Republicans simply call themselves "socialists", not Marxists necessarily.

Have you not figured out yet that your "cause", and the country whose interests you support, are simply NOT compatible with Irish Republicanism? You've been trying and trying and trying to convince yourself it's so, but it's NOT. The IRA is not a modern-day equivalent of the American Continental Army, or the Confederate Army you admire. It is a leftist-oriented, national liberation movement whose sympathies lie with like-minded Third World governments and nationalist organizations, many of which are extremely hostile to America and American foreign policy (i.e. Libya, Palestinian nationalists, etc.) Haven't you realized that just by interacting with the people on this forum? If not, then you are simply deluding yourself.

If there was a united Ireland, and loyalist terrorist groups were trying to violently undermine that government, there may be a need for outside military assistance. That's exactly what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are both sovereign nations with democratically elected governments, who have foreign troops in their country with their approval.

I think maybe it's a basic difference of perception of the issue, but how is removing two dictatorships and helping put in place democratically elected governments anything like imperialism? I see there actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan as being in line with Irish Republicanism. If we wish for a free Ireland, then why should we deny it to anyone else?

I am an American and I must say, you must be a complete idiot. You're whining about the insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq for being undemocratic to their people, yet you're willing to support undemocratic-minded Irish Republican insurgents who have killed the same British soldiers that have stood faithfully by your own government, and who have fought alongside you in Iraq? Wow, talk about undermining your oath to defend your country.

Actually, I once encountered another U.S. soldier on a Youtube message board who said he supported the IRA, and then he changed his mind as soon as I told him that the IRA's campaign was fought for a Democratic Socialist Republic.

[Finny]

Takeshi doesn't get it.

Nobody in the Iraq or Afghan Government asked the US to invade. Yet He'll listen to illegal Government of Iraq and Afghanistan imposed by the US Government to stay in Iraq.

Cannon fodder is all you are Takeshi. You do the work for those who won't fight for their profits.

[Finny]

I wonder how many sons/daughters of senators are in Iraq...and i don't mean as business advisors. I wonder if mr blair's kids are gonna go? Or is it just the same old way that working class people are slaughtered so the elite can become richer. Definition of a bayonet - a weopon with a worker on either end!

2 have had sons in Iraq.. McCain and Webb, who are both Vietnam vets.

[CHISHTI786]

Two...out of how many senators in the senate.

Free south carolina you made me laugh out loud. By the racist language you use like "camel j....y" in your ignorant rant belie's your state of mind as well as the state of your world view. You've obviously opened your heart to mass murder and believed everything fox tv has told you and nodded and approved in a zombie, clueless like manner.

Could you tell me which one's are the camel j....'s - the resistance or all iraqi's as they're all arabs. How many of the 9/11 people were from iraq - the answer NONE, most were of saudi origin, so why didn't georgy boy invade saudi arabia...aaahh it would have been bad for his dad's oil business so instead they chose iraq who were innocent of any collusion with anti US groups around the world but had...wait for it.....billions of barrels of oil and george and crew couldn't wait to get their hands on it...they had to murder a million iraqi's and destroy the country while they were doing it but hey....they're just a bunch of camel j..k...'s anyway so who cares eh free south carolina?

There is no democracy in iraq and this is a laughable myth. The US and it's allies invaded, destroyed the infrastructure, looted the wealth, murdered in the millions, dropped cancer causing munition so if the bombs n bullets don't get you cancer will and then have the cheek to put into place a pro western, all for selling off the wealth of their country to the US, iraqi "government" who will facilitate the looting and propagation of US policy. They can't even go out of the green zone ha ha ha what type of a government is it that that can't go out of a mile radius of the centre of town.

So you think that 9/11 entitles you morons to invade, occupy and slaughter in the middle east do you...ever wondered why 9/11 happened?? Doubtful as that involves deep thinking. Lets take iran for instance - in the middle of the last century there was a DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of iran named DR Mossadiq and he was a socialist - he took the oil, electricity etc out of the hands of private individuals and nationalised them in an effort redistribute the wealth...obviously this cut out the usa/uk and they were very upset...how dare the people who owned the oil profit from it..bloody camel j.....'s... so the cia/mi5 agitated within the country, destabilsed the democratically elected regime and had the shah imposed upon the people of iran. Now the shah loved the west, lived in luxury while his people were impoverished and tortured thousands of them via his special police units and all this with the wests approval. The USA don't give a damn about democracy or sovereignty - they only care about the oil.

The usa invaded, occupied and slaughtered 3 million innocent vietnamese and continue to kill today via THEIR USE OF THE CHEMICAL WEAPON agent orange and now their finance department (the world bank) has "restructured" the vietnamese economy so it will now be used as a sweat shop making western goods and the vietnamese people will have the privalige to make goods for the US whilst they earn pennies for working 16 hr shifts with no access to the lavatory, no trade unions and beatings galore.

You people backed, trained (in the college of the america's) and funded the contra's - the ultra rightwing death squads who slaughtered and maimed their way through south america. You invaded somalia (got your ass kicked), propped up the extreme right wing in haiti who regularily tortured and slaughtered it's people, invaded korea and fought a proxy war with iran when you asked, funded and trained saddam..he was your best mate at the time..2 million iranians died and 1 million iraqis but hey..as you repeated in your post..they were just camel j.....'s. Now you've invaded iraq, the first time you killed hundreds of thousands and via sanctions millions of babies, and afghanistan where the innocents are slaughtered daily.

Let me tell you if someone invaded my country, killed my family, raped my sister then i'd want to behead that person. I'm actually not infavour of these beheadings for the sake of beheadings, a bullet serves the same purpose, and, unlike you, i'm the first one to say that there are extremists who call themselves Muslims and i don't like them either but you see...thats the difference between you and I..i'm ready to say that all that's done in the name of resisting US occupation is not good but you, on the other hand, say that say that everything your country does is right and wholesome.

On your logic you want a war on terror because three thousand of your people were killed in 9/11 then first let the koreans, vietnamese, south americans, somalians, iraqis, iranians, Palestinians,afghani's, haitians, indonesians etc have their war of terror against you as your country has killed, butchered, occupied and derailed many a democratically elected government all in the name of amassing wealth and political influence.

You wana know how bin laden and his crew know how to make bombs and use guerilla tactics...it's all in the CIA manual which was tought them by YOUR boys from langley.

People like you really make me laugh...but hey...you could be correct...saddam could still have weapons of mass destruction, the palestinians don't have a right to the land they lived on for over a thousand years but american zionists who live in new jersey do and hey...wasn't that lee harvey oswald a good shot!!!!

[CHISHTI786]

I think free south carolina will fight to to the last drop of somebody else's blood.

[Pádraig Mac Piarais]

If there was a united Ireland, and loyalist terrorist groups were trying to violently undermine that government, there may be a need for outside military assistance.


No there wouldn't be a need for foreign military intervention. Don't you realise that's exactly what the British government claims it has been doing here in Ireland; keeping the savage Irish from each other's throats.

That's exactly what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are both sovereign nations with democratically elected governments, who have foreign troops in their country with their approval.


That's not the case at all, and my mind is simply boggled as to how you can believe such tripe. There's nothing democratic about the situation in either country at the moment. What you have is the largest military power in the world trying to expand its hegemony and in the process making an awful lot of money for the industries who fund such conquests.

I think maybe it's a basic difference of perception of the issue, but how is removing two dictatorships and helping put in place democratically elected governments anything like imperialism?


You're right. I think I'll perceive the British presence in Ireland as benign from now on :eusa_eh:. How does the United States have the right to interfere with other country's sovereignty? I'm sure most people in Iraq would have Saddam back any day, compared with the tyranny which they now live under.

I see there actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan as being in line with Irish Republicanism.


Then you know nothing about Irish Republicanism.

[quirk]

By the racist language you use like "camel j....y"

Yeah this is rascist language and shouldn't be used on this board.

[CHISHTI786]

By the way Mr carolina the icon you use is vaguely Islamic - the crescent and the palm tree - has south carolina adopted Islamic iconography or are you preparing to convert?? :eusa_dance:

[Finny]

I think free south carolina will fight to to the last drop of somebody else's blood.

but won't fight his own battle...

[Puddies]

To say that the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan are for "democracy" would presuppose that the US would work to combat dictatorships every where. So ask a Saudi.

Would I be right in saying that the two imperialists here believe Hugo Chavez is a dictator despite the fact that he's the most popular elected leader in the hemisphere?

[FTA69]

[QUOTE]That Camel****'s home base was in countries that tolerated extremism just like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iraq never tolerated Islamic extremism, in fact Saddam sought to rid Iraq of fundamentalism, one of the reasons why he hammered Shia clerics. Iraq was in fact a secular dictatorship, it had no relations with Al Qaeda et al.

Imperialism would be taking over their country and adding the state of Iraq to the 50 states (like the U.S. did with South Carolina). Your use of propaganda terminology sounds all revolutionary, but the definitions of those words don't hold up to the situation.

Not necessarily, imperialism and colonialism aren't bywords for each other. Invading another country in pursuit of its oil reserves and an interest in controlling the Middle East is imperialism.

What are we doing to the innocent ones?

At present? The same thing every occupying army does I'd imagine. You've already killed up to half a million civilians in Iraq.

Is that why they have more freedoms and rights then they did under Saddam Hussein and the Taliban?

The freedom to get shot by soldiers at a roadblock? The freedom to live with no sewage or electricity? The freedom to grow up in a wartorn sh*thole with no future? Great laugh. The only real change in Iraq could have come from the Iraqi people themselves, invading and bombing the sh*t out of it just made the situation a whole lot worse.

[FreeSouthCarolina]

Hahahahaha:icon_lol: .

I read all these posts to the word and I have honestly never come across such lunacy.

But anyway, there is a lot of talk about us evil right wing extremist fascist Americans slaughtering the people of all these different countries. I'd like to ask all of y'all how many war crimes have been committed against civilians by U.S. troops. I'd also like to ask how many civilians have been directly killed by U.S. troops. The camel****(insurgents) you support have killed the vast majority of all those dead civilians your talking about. Not us fascist Americans. CHISHTI786 is quite the example to show that the Left is all about emotion and feelings and no facts to back it up.

No, quirk, camel**** is not racist language. I made it very clear who is the camel****. The camel**** are the terrorists exclusively. I believe I also mentioned one of my Muslim friends who was a refugee from Hussein's regime. I actually like Islam. I like everyone who's nice to me no matter what race they are. I also know full well that the camel**** terrorists aren't doing god's will.

Something that really disturbed me though:
Let me tell you if someone invaded my country, killed my family, raped my sister then i'd want to behead that person. I'm actually not infavour of these beheadings for the sake of beheadings, a bullet serves the same purpose, and, unlike you, i'm the first one to say that there are extremists who call themselves Muslims and i don't like them either but you see...thats the difference between you and I..i'm ready to say that all that's done in the name of resisting US occupation is not good but you, on the other hand, say that say that everything your country does is right and wholesome.

Just to get the 2nd part of that paragraph out of the way, have you not realized I am a secessionist? Have you not realized that I want South Carolina to leave the U.S.A? I hate the federal government and I want my state out of it. But thats not the disturbing part thats just the something completely retarded.

I'll tell you right now that U.S. troops did not kill the families of those beasts that beheaded the man in that video. I'll also tell you that the U.S. troops did not rape the sisters or mothers of the beasts either. And I'll also tell you that the man in the video WASN'T A U.S. SOLDIER! His name was Nick Berg. He wasn't a politician, he wasn't a soldier,He was a communications businessman. He had a family and a daughter named Sara. His head was sawed off by a small hand knife because the U.S. government refused to "exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib". Not because the executioners had family murdered or raped. Nick Berg had a daughter you sick bastard. You can ramble bull**** that doesn't make sense all day long, but this crosses a fine line called good and evil.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1525495,00.html

[CHISHTI786]

I'd name all the iraqi people the US has murdered only it would take about a century you pathetic loser. The term camel j..... refers to the race of the people, being arab, so infact you are being racist.

So you think its correct for your county to leave the 50 states yet its fine for iraq to be governed by them...yeah you're a real intellectual. US troops have been convicted of killing, torturing and raping innocent iraqi's yet you blindly support their barbarity. I just hope the patriot act kicks in in south carolina and you're convicted of terrorism against the US and see what happens to you.

Beheading is bad but i suppose being blown to smithereens by bunker busters, being evicerated by daisy cutters, being tortured and killed in prison or dieing from cancer because of the depleted uranium munition thats left everywhere is very civilized.

These contracters who go to iraq understand that they're going to work in a warzone and they're paid hundreds of pounds a day and they were cashing in and they got caught by the insurgents. They couldn't refuse the temptating offer of all that cash and went to work there...they could have said no but they went because they wanted to exploit the situation for money. Why do you think there are alot of merceneries in iraq...cos your average british squaddie is paid £250 per week to be there but a merc is on that a day so they keep going back for the money like the contracters.

You talk of good and evil...this is really laughable as your government is the one going around the globe occupying, killing and slaughtering and destabilizing democratically elected governments who don't happen to tow the line. The CIA is the biggest terrorist group operating today and they're responsible for more murders than anybody else.

I feel sorry for you...maybe too many cheeseburgers and coke have dulled your senses, maybe too much disney has made you believe that nice white anglo saxon protestants can bring peace and security to the world if only all the blacks, asians, muslims, lefties and commies would just let you rule them.

You're an evil man mr carolina...its fine for the US to kill millions but if anybody fights back then they're a terrorist. You're blind, arrogant and pro imperialist and i really don't understand what you're doing here on this forum. There are many other forums like kkk.com or whitemastersofthe world.net or alsationabusersmonthly.org.

Put your white sheet back on, burn a couple of crosses and go put on a tom metzger cd so you can free south carolina...what an idiot!!!

[CHISHTI786]

Nice of you to mention Abu Gharaib...is that the civilization you want to bring to the world...is that standard american prison hospitality you evil dog.

[FreeSouthCarolina]

lol man... your not making any sense. I've asked you to give me the number of civilians slaughtered by American soldiers and you haven't, instead you just copped out because you know that there havent been anywhere close to a thousand even.

Yea man I watch Fox, CNN, NBC, etc. just about anything thats on really. I eat cheeseburgers, I drink Pepsi(although tonight I tried an apple soda from mexico, it was pretty good), I watched Disney movies as a kid, and I am a Lutheran. I mean those white sheets sound like a comfortable outfit, but my black girlfriend might have a problem with the whole Klan thing. Its a shame that I actually have to mention race to defend myself from being labeled a racist. I usually don't even mention it. Its a sad thing that you apparently have the authority to call me a racist even though I say I am not.

[Puddies]

lol man... your not making any sense. I've asked you to give me the number of civilians slaughtered by American soldiers and you haven't, instead you just copped out because you know that there havent been anywhere close to a thousand even.

Yea man I watch Fox, CNN, NBC, etc. just about anything thats on really. I eat cheeseburgers, I drink Pepsi(although tonight I tried an apple soda from mexico, it was pretty good), I watched Disney movies as a kid, and I am a Lutheran. I mean those white sheets sound like a comfortable outfit, but my black girlfriend might have a problem with the whole Klan thing. Its a shame that I actually have to mention race to defend myself from being labeled a racist. I usually don't even mention it. Its a sad thing that you apparently have the authority to call me a racist even though I say I am not.What percentage of Iraqis support this crusade for democracy?

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/jan06/Iraq_Jan06_grph5.GIF

[CHISHTI786]

Listen mr carolina when YOU started using the term camel jockey you defined yourself as a racist.

A year and a half ago, before most of the sectarian deaths, the allies gave an estimate that 750,000 iraqi's had died - do you think that all 750,000 were jihadist fundamentalists cos osama would be loving it if he even had a quarter of the number of recruits in his group. Do you you really believe the BS about surgical strikes and pin point bombing?? Come on...it's obvious you're not stupid so please open your eyes. If america keeps attacking muslim countries then they will play right into the hands of the fundamentalists who say that the US/UK are on a crusade against muslims and islam...can't you see that?

If the brits hadn't handed palestine over to the zionists and the US hadn't backed 100% the occupation, slaughter and the exiling of millions of palestinians then mr bin laden would have been just another saudi businessman and america would have had to create another bogeyman after the cold war.

Sectarianism has killed alot of muslims in iraq but do you really believe that the might of the allied war machine has killed less than a bunch of truck bombers??

As a Muslim i don't want anymore iraqi people to die, or american soldiers or british ones - i just want the allies out of the country they have occupied. I am not a supporter of saddam hussein or bin laden but when you see the injustice in the middle east it makes your blood boil. You see in the middle east you get two choices:

1 Be ruled over by a pro western, totalatarian dictator and his secret police force where there are no human rights and no democracy.

2 Have your country occupied by the west

They're the choices, thats why their next target is iran because they do have open elections there and they are not governed by the west, also venezuela and the great hugo are on the hit list for the same reason.

Watch video's by ted pike where he talks about zionism and the calvinist christian right in america.

[CHISHTI786]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rz7UNxnOI3M - welcome to abu ghraib - the USA at it's civilized best!!

"but this crosses a fine line called good and evil"....yeah right

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo

zionism is not judaism

[FreeSouthCarolina]

...you make Rosey O'Donnell look sane.

[Finny]

...you make Rosey O'Donnell look sane.


FSC, you make Bush look smart..

You are in the wrong forum, your better off in one of the Loyalist Forums. So you feel better about your racism and blind following of a King.

[FreeSouthCarolina]

FSC, you make Bush look smart..

You are in the wrong forum, your better off in one of the Loyalist Forums. So you feel better about your racism and blind following of a King.

Thats exactly right, I'm a loyalist and a racist. :hmmm: All my Creggan cousins in Derry are gonna get a laugh out of that. I made the distinction between camel**** and muslims but y'all refuse to listen to them. The race card is a last ditch effort in any sort of argument.

By the way your statement there would have made more sense if Bush didn't have an MBA from Harvard and a bachelors from Yale.

[Finny]

Thats exactly right, I'm a loyalist and a racist. :hmmm: All my Creggan cousins in Derry are gonna get a laugh out of that. I made the distinction between camel**** and muslims but y'all refuse to listen to them. The race card is a last ditch effort in any sort of argument.

By the way your statement there would have made more sense if Bush didn't have an MBA from Harvard and a bachelors from Yale.


Oh please, Your Creggan cousins would nut you if they heard these comments from you.

No, your distinction is based on what you call "Radicalism", yet ignoring Radicalism in the USA itself. The Christian Coalition is a prime example of this. These people think its their "God" given right to kill all Muslims. Which is about on par with the Crusades. Oh and they are right in your own state of South Carolina.

The term camel jockey comes from a sport and is a racist term. It would be like if I would call you a Redneck.

Redneck use to mean Scot-Irish in America. But now is a term used to degrade people from the South.

If you want to actually argue or debate the issue, I'll gladly school you on how "Radical" Islam came about. Its wasn't Muslims who came up with the idea, but the British and the US who did so. Starting in Saudi Arab with Wahhabism to the group known as the Taliban which was funded,supplied and trained by the US, UK and Israel (oh yes, Mossad) during the 1970s and 1980s.

George W. Bush is an idiot. Anyone with a silver spoon can "graduate" from an Ivy league school. Even Paris Hilton graduated High school. But it doesn't mean you are smart or even get what they taught. Bush was rejected by the U of Texas for Law School and thats not even a good Law School. So what does that tell you?

[Puddies]

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/mar2006/bush_muralsmall.jpg

[FreeSouthCarolina]

Oh please, Your Creggan cousins would nut you if they heard these comments from you.

No, your distinction is based on what you call "Radicalism", yet ignoring Radicalism in the USA itself. The Christian Coalition is a prime example of this. These people think its their "God" given right to kill all Muslims. Which is about on par with the Crusades. Oh and they are right in your own state of South Carolina.

The term camel jockey comes from a sport and is a racist term. It would be like if I would call you a Redneck.

Redneck use to mean Scot-Irish in America. But now is a term used to degrade people from the South.

If you want to actually argue or debate the issue, I'll gladly school you on how "Radical" Islam came about. Its wasn't Muslims who came up with the idea, but the British and the US who did so. Starting in Saudi Arab with Wahhabism to the group known as the Taliban which was funded,supplied and trained by the US, UK and Israel (oh yes, Mossad) during the 1970s and 1980s.

George W. Bush is an idiot. Anyone with a silver spoon can "graduate" from an Ivy league school. Even Paris Hilton graduated High school. But it doesn't mean you are smart or even get what they taught. Bush was rejected by the U of Texas for Law School and thats not even a good Law School. So what does that tell you?

Who said its their god given right to kill muslims? And why are you even bringing them up? Sounds like a very unsupported generalization. I never called them cameljockey, I called them camel****, something I actually made up specifically for this debate.

Ooh look a mural. That makes me quiver in my boots.

[CHISHTI786]

Mr carolina i see both the neo cons and the bin ladens of this world as extremists - they are two sides of the same coin and wouldn't exist without the other. What did rosie say that was so bad? She just echoed what the top military brass from both the US and UK have been saying and that is the presence of the coalition is making the situation worse and the allies should get out of there as quick as possible.

BTW you make bill o'reilly sound like micheal moore

All i say is that sovereign nations should be allowed to determine their own rules and regulations without fear of foreign intervention especially if that intervention is for financial reasons. UK out of Ireland/Iraq/Afghanistan and US out of...well everywhere except the US!!

As finny quite correctly said this radical "islam" was a concoction of the british and this is historical fact - if you can't be bothered to read then watch lawrence of arabia! A couple of hundered years ago britain was as they put it "creating the commonwealth" ie invading, occupying, slaughtering, dividing up and looting countries across the world but they, and their european colonial cousins, were faced with a problem and that problem was the Turkish Ottoman Islamic empire. They tried war but it failed and had to devise a stratergy for splitting up the empire and then colonising it.

Their spies within the Muslim lands found a person who was from an Islamic scholarly family by the name of ibn abdul wahhab. He was known for his quick temper and had been refuted by his father and brother and kicked out of the family home - the british saw their chance. There was a local tribal ruler who had lofty ambitions and was ruthless in his lust for wealth and power and his name was ibn saud. The brits saw their chance to split the muslims from the inside thus weakening them and opening them up to military defeat. Ibn wahhab was trained and inculcated with heretical beliefs which cast 99% of all Muslims out of Islam on the pre text that they were innovators and pantheists, monotheism being the most important point of a muslim belief, basically he adopted a puritanical, narrowminded way and spread his beliefs first by mouth and then, via the british, he forcibly made people convert to his heretical and austere version of Islaam on pain of death. This new way wasn't even called Islam but wahhabism. The brits trained and armed the wahabi/saudi army as ibn saud understood he couldn't take over without a religious mandate and ibn wahhab understood his message wouldn't have wide appeal without military force and they ravaged the land killing thousands of innocent Muslims who refused his new religion and forcibly converting others while ibn saud took all the lands and war booty. Eventually after thousands and thousands of innocent Muslims killed by the wahhabi/saudi/brit army the ottomans were defeated and the saudi family took over arabia and allowed the uk and the other eurpoean nations to take the lands formerly governed by the ottomans. It has been that way ever since - the saudi "royal" family govern the political side of life and the descendants of ibn wahhab the religious side of life as can be seen today that king abdullah saud is the political leader and abdul aziz ash shaikh is the grand muft (as sheikh denotes his wahhab family lineage)

Throughout the 20th century and after years of colonialism the wahhabi's split into two groups..1 supported the saudi regime and the puppet regimes across the world and the other wahhabis wanted violent revolution within every muslim country to uproot the corruption and non implementation of Shariah law and these are the bin laden/zawahiri jihadists you have today.

These jihadists now target westerners and western interests and the governments are now asking what they call moderate muslims for help against them. Basically Dr frankenstein is being tormented by his own monster and wants help from the people who were the original targets and victims of the monster he created. You couldn't make it up!

And the jump from being a saudi wahhabi to a jihadi wahhabi is about as far as an orangeman becoming a loyalist paramilitary - not too far.

When bush and crew said that there were connections between saddam hussein and the jihadists it made all muslims laugh as bin laden openly called ALL muslim leaders apostates and demanded their head and saddam was a secularist and had nothing to do with religious movements but hey bush never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!

The pigeons have come home to roost.

[ciaranxavier]

that picture is awesome

[FreeSouthCarolina]

Rosie thinks that the government was behind 911.

[Finny]

Rosie thinks that the government was behind 911.


No, Rosie said there is a cover up on what happen. Which 40% of Americans believe. So many loose ends.


But are you willing to argue it?

[FreeSouthCarolina]

No, Rosie said there is a cover up on what happen. Which 40% of Americans believe. So many loose ends.


But are you willing to argue it?

I really don't care that much about a fat lesbian to waste my time on it. Who gave you that statistic? I've been living here quite a while and I've never met someone who believed it.

[quirk]

Who gave you that statistic? I've been living here quite a while and I've never met someone who believed it.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_3987.cfm

[Finny]

I really don't care that much about a fat lesbian to waste my time on it. Who gave you that statistic? I've been living here quite a while and I've never met someone who believed it.


Don't care to debate you on Rosie. Just the facts on 9/11. Like NORAD standing down and some other issues.. Like the Support structure in WTC 1 and 2... failed without any direct impact to them.

Reason why you haven't met any of them is because you are a sheeple. Most people won't talk about it publicly because it's taboo. Kinda like be a Communist during McCarthyism.

[ciaranxavier]

Rosie thinks that the government was behind 911.

i agree with rosie. the americans released a document of when they were at the peak of their troubles with cuba. in that document it planned "terrorist" attacks on american soil fabricated to appear as a cuban job, but done by americans. and this was to be their basis for a full out war on cuba. this failed to materialize. but 9/11 has a lot of the same characteristics and i know that big eared goofy faced MF you got for a leader is capable of killing his own countrymen to fatten his wallet. do you think its a coincidence that cheney is part of BOTH the iraqi wars. i mean theres too many coincidences to deny some involvment of the US government. but it is easier to blame it on those islamics..... just like the english find it easier to blame the NI problem on catholics and protestants.

[ciaranxavier]

and anyone wanting a link to that document can find it themselves i seen it on the documentary channel. but it is out there so it shouldnt be hard to find.

[ciaranxavier]

Who said its their god given right to kill muslims? And why are you even bringing them up? Sounds like a very unsupported generalization. I never called them cameljockey, I called them camel****, something I actually made up specifically for this debate.

Ooh look a mural. That makes me quiver in my boots.

was this written by a two year old. theyre learning to type early these days.

[ciaranxavier]

I really don't care that much about a fat lesbian to waste my time on it. Who gave you that statistic? I've been living here quite a while and I've never met someone who believed it.

thats cause you live in america the land of obesity and thick skulls. not saying all are like that.....just some

[CHISHTI786]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ntpTuOpnt70 - HIDDEN IN CLEAR VIEW

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ntpTuOpnt70 - GREAT VIDEO...PLEASE ALL WATCH THIS

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z40g4ubayTw - WHAT ROSIE SAID

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKnp6XsCo4 - TELLING IT LIKE IT IS

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qQdhMSEqhfg - MISS SOUTH CAROLINA SPEAKS...OH THE WISDOM - VERY FUNNY!!

[Puddies]

thats cause you live in america the land of obesity and thick skulls. not saying all are like that.....just someHe's a product of this fake Cracker American Nation. If an outside observer were to watch an accurate cross-section of our mass media reports they would get the impression that the most important issues that face our people are how, not if, we should exercise dominance over the rest of the world, what Britney Spears and/or Paris Hilton did last night and the validity of the Book of Mormon vs. the Holy Bible.

[jester2207]

lol.....wait.....lol....sorry, thank you for not including all irish americans in his retardation, you say yer hyna black, ask her how she fills about the friggin clan, just to summerise, cus thats what its sounds like to me.www.antifa.org.uk or www.myspace.com/supportantifa,@hands off shaquanda, just to help ye with a little homework mate

[ciaranxavier]

lol.....wait.....lol....sorry, thank you for not including all irish americans in his retardation, you say yer hyna black, ask her how she fills about the friggin clan, just to summerise, cus thats what its sounds like to me.www.antifa.org.uk or www.myspace.com/supportantifa,@hands off shaquanda, just to help ye with a little homework mate

:hmmm: ill get back to you when i actually understand what you are trying to say. is it me or is peoples grammer and spelling getting worse on this site?

[ciaranxavier]

He's a product of this fake Cracker American Nation. If an outside observer were to watch an accurate cross-section of our mass media reports they would get the impression that the most important issues that face our people are how, not if, we should exercise dominance over the rest of the world, what Britney Spears and/or Paris Hilton did last night and the validity of the Book of Mormon vs. the Holy Bible.

hahah its about time i met a level headed american. the last good american i met was a guy who lived there but was from el salvador. MS13 i dunno if any of you ever heard of it, i think he was a part of that.

[Finny]

hahah its about time i met a level headed american. the last good american i met was a guy who lived there but was from el salvador. MS13 i dunno if any of you ever heard of it, i think he was a part of that.



Ciaran...

Not the best example of American, hell he probably was an illegal.. nevermind that, MS13 are vile scum.

[jester2207]

Surrenos Trece or SUR13 is a South Side Mexican Gang in Los Angelas, so I would havta think it was some kind of derivitive of that....(guessing)

[Finny]

Surrenos Trece or SUR13 is a South Side Mexican Gang in Los Angelas, so I would havta think it was some kind of derivitive of that....(guessing)

MS13 is bigger, about 100,000 members. From Central America or Central American background. MS means Mara Salvatrucha.

[FTA69]

MS-13 are scumbags, there is no defending gangs such as them. The hardest street crews in London are generally the NLS, F*ck Fam and Trash Fam (Somalians), Mashere Punjab and Brick Lane Mafia (Pakistani), the Bangladeshi crews are no joke either.

Asian gangs over here are generally the most vicious and violent, they also vastly outnumber black and white gangs in East London; when you fight with one you fight with twenty of them.

[ciaranxavier]

Ciaran...

Not the best example of American, hell he probably was an illegal.. nevermind that, MS13 are vile scum.

hes changed his lifestyle now. and i am aware of that. and it is a good example of an american gang problems are huge in your country.

[DublinRepublican]

MS-13 are scumbags, there is no defending gangs such as them. The hardest street crews in London are generally the NLS, F*ck Fam and Trash Fam (Somalians), Mashere Punjab and Brick Lane Mafia (Pakistani), the Bangladeshi crews are no joke either.

Asian gangs over here are generally the most vicious and violent, they also vastly outnumber black and white gangs in East London; when you fight with one you fight with twenty of them.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand :hmmm:

[KillinSnakes]

Surrenos Trece or SUR13 is a South Side Mexican Gang in Los Angelas, so I would havta think it was some kind of derivitive of that....(guessing)


They're not Mexican, they were originally orphans from the civil war started by the USA in El Salvador.

[jester2207]

o, see ya learn sumthing new every day, thanks friend

[Jerry_Corneilus]

Takeshi doesn't get it.

Nobody in the Iraq or Afghan Government asked the US to invade. Yet He'll listen to illegal Government of Iraq and Afghanistan imposed by the US Government to stay in Iraq.

Cannon fodder is all you are Takeshi. You do the work for those who won't fight for their profits.



The Shias including those now in govt as well as the Kurds supported the invasion.

Its not as black and white as the left present it, not forgetting the US put Saddam in power and previously supported him.

[Jerry_Corneilus]

MS-13 are scumbags, there is no defending gangs such as them. The hardest street crews in London are generally the NLS, F*ck Fam and Trash Fam (Somalians), Mashere Punjab and Brick Lane Mafia (Pakistani), the Bangladeshi crews are no joke either.

Asian gangs over here are generally the most vicious and violent, they also vastly outnumber black and white gangs in East London; when you fight with one you fight with twenty of them.



Yes, but these are plastic council estate gangsters, the two biggest crime families in London are the Adams family, (Irish immigrants, estimated fortune of one family member 200 million £) and the Turkish Ariff family,

[FreeSouthCarolina]

Miss South Carolina really doesn't need to be brought into this.. at all. She was a pageant contestant, not Governor of South Carolina. Every country has their dumb blondes(even if that country has no literal blonde hair).

And jester do you actually support ANTIFA? Last time I checked they were into violently attacking people because of their beliefs. Something that violates the right to free speech and expression and human rights. Fighting hatred with hatred is not a good thing.

[KillinSnakes]

Miss South Carolina really doesn't need to be brought into this.. at all. She was a pageant contestant, not Governor of South Carolina. Every country has their dumb blondes(even if that country has no literal blonde hair).

And jester do you actually support ANTIFA? Last time I checked they were into violently attacking people because of their beliefs. Something that violates the right to free speech and expression and human rights. Fighting hatred with hatred is not a good thing.

Beating down fascists never hurt anybody.