Policing

[Daithí]

Do fellow Sinn Fein supporters now agree to the decision?
What are your feelings?

[ártybhoy]

I haven't heard of anything positive come of it and nothing bad apart from people moaning about connor murphy thats it.people

[mac_talla]

Jury is still out, for me.

[Mellows1922]

How do you take the GFA without taking policing ?

The policing issue was a central plank to that agreement and if we believe that this route (through constitutional politics) is the best route to achieve our objective (and I do) then the policing issue had to be tackled at some point.

Engagement had to come, it was just a matter of when, and I think overall the movement made the correct move at the right time, once the substantive recommendations of Patten had been implemented.

It was never going to be something people were happy about, it's a Brit police force at the end of the day, nothing changes that, regardless of how many mechanisms of oversight are put into place, it's still a Brit police force.

But the reality is, at this point in time, they are the police that are on our streets so we need to ensure they were and are unable to act in the manner they have done previously.

If we strip away all the rethoric, the police in the six today are a world away from what they were in terms of what they can get away with, I'm not saying there are not a bunch of sectarian scumbags still there, but their activities have been severely restricted.

But they are still a Brit police force and the issue will not be resolved until partition is a thing of the past.

[Diarmuid]

Police are needed, but they have to be credible. The GFA and the Patten report were all about introducing credibility. I don't understand the whole "**** tha police" mentality, from what some free staters have said on here the gardaí are just as mistrusted despite not having recent roots in sectarianism or the same level of collusion with the Brits.

[duggie-89]

i personally believe that the whole policing thing needs to be taken on. as i see the police as being a bulwarck to unification.

the police has changed but what powers has the DPP realy have over them?? n is it wise for the DPP to get any actual poweer over them apart from watchin what there doin and givin it a voice. after all if the DPP had more power what wud the unionist controlled DPP do wit this power???

yea der are alot of those closed minded "republicicans" who still go on about "F da peelers" but lets face it we need a police force that is gonna b more approachable/sympathetic to republicans

[duggie-89]

also i was wonder what wud ppl say about a 32 county police force now that means no garda n no psni but a new 32 county police force???

i no dis point has been broght up b4 on some thread or other

[Diarmuid]

also i was wonder what wud ppl say about a 32 county police force now that means no garda n no psni but a new 32 county police force???

i no dis point has been broght up b4 on some thread or other

I would welcome that. Anything to make the border irrelevant.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

The border will never be "irrelevant" for as long as it exists, by the mere fact that it does exist.

[Diarmuid]

The border will never be "irrelevant" for as long as it exists, by the mere fact that it does exist.

Your comments can be irrelevant, but you clearly exist.

[Liam Lynch]

Your comments can be irrelevant, but you clearly exist.

Like the border, which prompted your contribution. An irrelevancy doesn't merit mention, a relevancy does.

[MarkyMark]

Do fellow Sinn Fein supporters now agree to the decision?
What are your feelings?

nope, just because they have a new name and uniform doesnt mean they are a new force.

I was also disgusted by the way SF basically dismissed OSF's decision.

[Jim]

Ive found in conversation with any provo i met since the acceptance of british police was heralded, that nearly everyone of them has stated that "they dont really support the police".
Despite pointing out to these people that they're guilty through assiociation it will take a while for them to realise the full implications of what they did unless a serious situation occurs in the mean time.

[ártybhoy]

Supporting SF doesn't mean i agree with policing, i don't like coppers however i put my trust in SF who after all through the army had the brits on their knees after cannery wharf, a few more of they bombs and it could have chased away a lot of foreign investors. If SF can change from being the voice of the army to being the main voice and ditching war then i have every faith they know what they are doing, Gerry Adams is a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them.
The army stop the war in 1997, 4 years later guerilla warfare is finished on the main stage and will never have the support of the people again thanks to 9/11, every spy agency has the arms dealers of the world under watch, an Irishman outside ireland in any country known for weapons is getting touted to the yanks then mi6 right away they the spooks are offering bags of hard cash for all that stuff now. Big brother is watching (literally)

[wolfie]

Its still early days on the policing issue, SF are among our enemies on the policing board and DPP's and our Reps have a clear job of work. The problem i see is the May deadline for policing and justice portfolios to be devolved to the assembly. listening to the rumbles from the unionists they see the deadline been moved. This will cause anger among the grassroots of SF and goes against the Motion at the Ard Fheis in my opinion.
Also I would be cautious on the MI5 involvement, clearly the police OP in lurgan last month was instigated by the spooks,
We need to be carefull and clear about our approach in dealing with the Spy network operating across Ireland. But firstly we need to campaign to get the branch out in the 6 and the feckers in the 26.

[Jim]

Supporting SF doesn't mean i agree with policing,

Some within the provos would suggest that you were cowardly in far so as you'll support the more nationalistic elements of the party but not the nitty gritty of their policy regarding the british police.

Personally i feel that if you support colloborators then you are a colloborator.

if SF can change from being the voice of the army to being the main voice and ditching war then i have every faith they know what they are doing, Gerry Adams is a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them.


Sure thats exactly what devalera did in 1926 and were did that get them from a republican perspective?

The army stop the war in 1997, 4 years later guerilla warfare is finished on the main stage and will never have the support of the people again thanks to 9/11, every spy agency has the arms dealers of the world under watch, an Irishman outside ireland in any country known for weapons is getting touted to the yanks then mi6 right away they the spooks are offering bags of hard cash for all that stuff now. Big brother is watching (literally)

Guerilla warfare will always be a factor whilst ireland is under occupation and to be honest the effects of 9/11 on irish guerilla warfare would be minimal in comparison to the civil war 1922/23 or the failed provo campaign 1969/97.
While the prospects of a widespread armed campaign are slim at the moment i would never rule it out at the future assuming that the mistakes of the past both politically and militarily are not repeated.

What are your reasons for not supporting the psni/ruc arty? Considering that the shinners have no problem with them being an british police force of occupation.

[ártybhoy]

I personelly think they are still a tool of the securocrats obviously all police are in their respective countries but in the north they are in cahoots with the old gaurd of the sb. Then the new 200 million mi5 base, its not the signs of the brits looking to the future and seeing a time when there could be a call for them to let the people run the country, far from it the building to me is a "**** yous we are here to stay" And i don't like the cowardly remark mate no call for it, some would say i'm going agains't things not supporting it 100%, i have no evidence to think they have changed for the better, its all a bit confusing from this side of the water.

[DFCRFB]

When it was first muted about this motion a few of us were invited to a private meeting where im form to discuss this with certin people. I personally at the time struggled with the whole concept of supporting these people in principle.
Hving been at the brunt end of their 'impartial' checkpoints at times i know exactly the scum which was within them. I still do find it hard to accept them but have realised there is a bigger picture to the whole thing.
Its better to be within that to be outside shouting about it.

At least within we now can have more of a say in the police force that WE want, rather it being a unionist police force.

Now i know there are people who will hate this and use it as a stick to beat SF but can anyone else offer an alternative? I dont see one at the moment and i sure as hell dont want it to go back to the way it was.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Artybhoy, you always seem very keen to come up with all kinds of reasons and excuses as to why a return to war is impossible, and that the only option towards a United Ireland is continued and ever-deeper collaboration with the British. Hmmm, interesting.

[ártybhoy]

Artybhoy, you always seem very keen to come up with all kinds of reasons and excuses as to why a return to war is impossible, and that the only option towards a United Ireland is continued and ever-deeper collaboration with the British. Hmmm, interesting.

Are you finished bitching you bellend. Collaboration? If you knew me you would know i'm no lover of any police force.
I don't need to make excuses why there won't be a return to war i just need to look at a pussy like you and think that crossmaglen has produced a fud, like yourself, not a excelent sniper to be had out of you, probably a snowball thrower?

[wolfie]

I personelly think they are still a tool of the securocrats obviously all police are in their respective countries but in the north they are in cahoots with the old gaurd of the sb. Then the new 200 million mi5 base, its not the signs of the brits looking to the future and seeing a time when there could be a call for them to let the people run the country, far from it the building to me is a "**** yous we are here to stay" .


Spot on a chara,
The crux of the policing issue is still to be tackled and thats the branch and the Mi5 spook machine. Sinn Fein are in the right position to tackle this.
It was reported recently that the main reason of this 200 million Spook Castle is to be the back up for Thames House. the story is that if Thames House finds its self compromised or attacked then with a flick of a switch all control is directed to the spook castle in the 6.

[ártybhoy]

i've been telling myself it (might) be a new government building of sorts to be handed over to the irish in the future, but i think alchohol has a lot to answer for with that stupid dream lol, no seriously it should be no1 priority for Sinn fein i mean i can understand a back up building over here or wales but to put it in such a politically insane hotspot is a red rag to the preverbal bull, it is enough to breed baby republicans by just showing them it once a year saying
"Theres the bad brit castle,you must destroy that when your older,meantime heres a sweetie till you get your first armalite" :icon_lol:

[Joseph Pariah]

Sinn Féin hasn't the power to reign in MI5 or Special Branch, and under the GFA/St. Andrews Agreements it's hard to see where this power is going to come from. I've noticed some supporters of Sinn Féin's current direction seem to think that by sitting in Stormont and on the Policing Boards and by working the system anything is possible; including a united Ireland.

But how can that be when the British government hasn't relinquished one ounce of its claim to sovereignty here in Ireland? Even if they grant the Northern executive a 'Policing Minister', he or she will have little or no power since policing is directly controlled by MI5. The construction of Palace Barracks should snap anyone who thinks Britain has no interest in Ireland out of it.

[ártybhoy]

I do have a major issue inside telling me
"the brits look 50 years into the future (long term plans) so their not going away anytime soon"

[Joseph Pariah]

So why then do you support the Provisional movement and its acceptance of this occupation?

[ártybhoy]

I believe SF is capable of getting the north to a position where the brits will let the people of the north run the 6 counties, the freestate is another matter and a harder thing to overcome than getting the brits to leave, the freestate is a worse problem theres too much invested in it from abroad too many people getting rich from it who cant and won't let it go.

[Jim]

I personelly think they are still a tool of the securocrats obviously all police are in their respective countries but in the north they are in cahoots with the old gaurd of the sb.

The British police (rank and file) in the north are there to ensure that britain's laws and statute are being upheld and as such will always be political.The Branch on both sides of the border but especially in the north are carrying out the bidding of the British Government and any sort of apologist who would tell you that it was only a few bad apples in the branch are liars as the british government wouldnt allow there own people to run amok.

The special branch might not take republicans up to the dublin mountains shoot them and leave their bodies lying on the ground but their core ethos is still the same.

Then the new 200 million mi5 base, its not the signs of the brits looking to the future and seeing a time when there could be a call for them to let the people run the country, far from it the building to me is a "**** yous we are here to stay"

The base was put their for that exact reason and the provos with support from the stoops could easily have said that they wouldnt support the st andrews agreement if its built,but they didnt of course and shinners have to ask themselves why?.

And i don't like the cowardly remark mate no call for it, some would say i'm going agains't things not supporting it 100%, i have no evidence to think they have changed for the better, its all a bit confusing from this side of the water.


Suggesting some shinners would call you cowardly wasnt meant to offend you at all but the point i was making was that supporting the provos and not the british police would be questioned by shinners because in any political organisation you have to take the rough with the smooth.

And while i commend you for not supporting the british police i dont think the policing issue is confusing as a lot of people from all over the world have taken the republican view (32CSM,RSF,IRSP,etc) regarding the british police and its very easy to understand if the willingness is there.

[ártybhoy]

I mean from a grassroots point of view,how the people really feel,is the majority really behind policng or against thats where i hold back on saying i fully support it, its the people on the ground who ultimately have to deal with them.

[socialist1974]

PSF have took on board a brit police force

all followers of PSF take that in really

90./. of former RUC men n women are now in the PSNI

Ill tell all brainwashed PSF supports or members the RUC/PSNI will always support the goverment the occupation the big capitial industries over the working class. Fact

The first order when Join those scum is defending and upholding the state

all use PSF supports wise up

think

slan

[scarface]

Spot on a chara,
The crux of the policing issue is still to be tackled and thats the branch and the Mi5 spook machine. Sinn Fein are in the right position to tackle this.
It was reported recently that the main reason of this 200 million Spook Castle is to be the back up for Thames House. the story is that if Thames House finds its self compromised or attacked then with a flick of a switch all control is directed to the spook castle in the 6.

ohh please tell me how the provos are going to tackle mi5? what 'position' are they in to tackle them

[wolfie]

ohh please tell me how the provos are going to tackle mi5? what 'position' are they in to tackle them

well since ya said please..

Firstly this is a massive site of our struggle to take on Military Intelligence and the Branch.
where we are now is at a starting point of this battle to remove the spooks,
through Republican involvement on the Policing Board and DPPs we set out to place a wedge between civic policing and secret service OPs.. to a certain extent this has been recognised but we will continue to highlight any dirty tricks and OPs that Military Intelligence and the Branch use to destablise our Republican Objectives.
Sinn Fein as the major voice of Republicanism are accountable to the people and will use the 6 county Assembly and the cross border institutions as well as the 26 county political bodies to bring attention on any dirty tricks used by MI5.
We use tactics like Political Agitation, Education and Campaigning.

[scarface]

well since ya said please..

Firstly this is a massive site of our struggle to take on Military Intelligence and the Branch.
where we are now is at a starting point of this battle to remove the spooks,
through Republican involvement on the Policing Board and DPPs we set out to place a wedge between civic policing and secret service OPs.. to a certain extent this has been recognised but we will continue to highlight any dirty tricks and OPs that Military Intelligence and the Branch use to destablise our Republican Objectives.
Sinn Fein as the major voice of Republicanism are accountable to the people and will use the 6 county Assembly and the cross border institutions as well as the 26 county political bodies to bring attention on any dirty tricks used by MI5.
We use tactics like Political Agitation, Education and Campaigning.

jesus you really do swallow all the buzz words and catchphrases! but how do the policing boards or the DPP's affect mi5 in any way? mi5 are accountable to no one and there is no seperation between the RUC and mi5 it's still the RUC that arrests and harasses republicans and they 'co-operate' with mi5

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Scarface, I'm sure MI5 are just ****ting themselves already.

[DFCRFB]

aye cause they are kacking it knowing that they are up against the other groups.
Oh no wait, they already have those well infiltrated.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"I believe SF is capable of getting the north to a position where the brits will let the people of the north run the 6 counties," - so that's what the IRA fought for for over thirty years is it artybhoy? To persuade them to graciously let us sort ourselves out? What a load of (predictable) defeatist, collaborationist bull****. If that's what your "strategy" is about, shove it up the back passage.

[Jerry_Corneilus]

Supporting SF doesn't mean i agree with policing, i don't like coppers however i put my trust in SF who after all through the army had the brits on their knees after cannery wharf, a few more of they bombs and it could have chased away a lot of foreign investors. If SF can change from being the voice of the army to being the main voice and ditching war then i have every faith they know what they are doing, Gerry Adams is a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them.
The army stop the war in 1997, 4 years later guerilla warfare is finished on the main stage and will never have the support of the people again thanks to 9/11, every spy agency has the arms dealers of the world under watch, an Irishman outside ireland in any country known for weapons is getting touted to the yanks then mi6 right away they the spooks are offering bags of hard cash for all that stuff now. Big brother is watching (literally)



Canary Wharf failed, I presume you mean the Bishopsgate/city of London bombing.

The security response was to impose a 'ring of steel' around the city of London sq mile, the same after Docklands.

You have to understand the PIRA did not have the resources to continue to mount such spectatculars, in the terms of ASUs being arrested and taken out of service spectaculars had an 80% failure rate.

You have to also realise these spectaculors were a last throw of the dice for the PIRA after the success the FRU had in compromising ASUs via 'aggressive intelligence'.

Part of the FRU strategy was also to a create fear in the Republican community that the PIRA could not defend them loyalist paramiliaries and thus support ceasefire.

As a strategy the PIRA army council knew they were in a corner, hence the ceasefire.

[Jerry_Corneilus]

jesus you really do swallow all the buzz words and catchphrases! but how do the policing boards or the DPP's affect mi5 in any way? mi5 are accountable to no one and there is no seperation between the RUC and mi5 it's still the RUC that arrests and harasses republicans and they 'co-operate' with mi5

MI5 in the north are based at HQNI Lisburn,Castlereagh, as well as having political advisors at stormont, they run the JIS, Joint Irish service, which comprises the PSNI Special branch and previously having alot of influence over both 14 int as well as the FRU.

The JIS also has a role in the republic.

MI5 are under the command of the JIC, The Joint Intelligence Committee,
the JIC comprises the heads of the British intelligence agencies, the Chief and Deputy Chief of the Defence Intelligence Staff, the Chief of the Assessments Staff, representatives of the Ministry of Defence, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and other departments and the Prime Minister's adviser on foreign affairs, obviously in regards to NI, the NI secretary of state is briefed.

[MarkyMark]

Canary Wharf failed, I presume you mean the Bishopsgate/city of London bombing.

The security response was to impose a 'ring of steel' around the city of London sq mile, the same after Docklands.

You have to understand the PIRA did not have the resources to continue to mount such spectatculars, in the terms of ASUs being arrested and taken out of service spectaculars had an 80% failure rate.

You have to also realise these spectaculors were a last throw of the dice for the PIRA after the success the FRU had in compromising ASUs via 'aggressive intelligence'.

Part of the FRU strategy was also to a create fear in the Republican community that the PIRA could not defend them loyalist paramiliaries and thus support ceasefire.

As a strategy the PIRA army council knew they were in a corner, hence the ceasefire.

Going to have to disagree wit you here. they were the IRA's way of saying, "we arent on our knees, infact we can step up the campaign if needs be". those bombs put the sh*ts up the british government. the bomb at isle of dogs caused over a billion pounds of damage. also the loyalists had all but been wiped out by 1994. they never returned to attacks after the IRA broke their ceasefire. the only group who did where the LVF, and the INLA got rid of them

[Seabird]

Jerry_C,

You have to also realise these spectaculors were a last throw of the dice for the PIRA after the success the FRU had in compromising ASUs via 'aggressive intelligence'.

Part of the FRU strategy was also to a create fear in the Republican community that the PIRA could not defend them loyalist paramiliaries and thus support ceasefire.

As a strategy the PIRA army council knew they were in a corner, hence the ceasefire.

I too disagree with you, the head of the england campaign was quite ready to continue on with the attacks, there was no shortage in weaponry. For every military action there was always a political objective, it was time to netgotiate. This has always been a politcal war backed up by the arm campaign. There has never been the thought "last throw of the dice," I do not quite understand your reason behind this statement.

[Jerry_Corneilus]

Jerry_C,



I too disagree with you, the head of the england campaign was quite ready to continue on with the attacks, there was no shortage in weaponry. For every military action there was always a political objective, it was time to netgotiate. This has always been a politcal war backed up by the arm campaign. There has never been the thought "last throw of the dice," I do not quite understand your reason behind this statement.



The security services policy in Northern Ireland since the PIRAs inception was to slow down the PIRAs rate of attrition and operations, from the mid 70s they were achieving that. Alongside that politically Catholics were starting to get a better deal, due to anti-discrimination legislation etc.

This had the effect of dramatically decreasing potential PIRA members, as did the PIRAs new cellular structure.

From the mid 80s and creation of the border watchtowers and introduction of more sophisticated intelligence technology, PIRA attacks in the north dramatically decreased, check the stats.

The PIRA put more emphasis on mainland attacks, the problem was by the early 90s only 1 in 5 attacks got through, such a rate of failure was unsustainable in the political climate, as were the casulties being inflicted via both loyalist paramilitaries and the SAS.

[Jerry_Corneilus]

Going to have to disagree wit you here. they were the IRA's way of saying, "we arent on our knees, infact we can step up the campaign if needs be". those bombs put the sh*ts up the british government. the bomb at isle of dogs caused over a billion pounds of damage. also the loyalists had all but been wiped out by 1994. they never returned to attacks after the IRA broke their ceasefire. the only group who did where the LVF, and the INLA got rid of them




Sinn Fein got the best deal avalible, from being nobodies in 69 to joint govt in 2007.

Loyalists were not wiped out, rather put on a lesh after the Nelson affair in terms of information supply.

The loyalists showed they were still operationally capable in 94 with the attack on Loughin island.

While the INLA assassinated Wright it was the the UVF actually 'decommisioned' the LVF.

[scarface]

Sinn Fein got the best deal avalible, from being nobodies in 69 to joint govt in 2007.

Loyalists were not wiped out, rather put on a lesh after the Nelson affair in terms of information supply.

The loyalists showed they were still operationally capable in 94 with the attack on Loughin island.

While the INLA assassinated Wright it was the the UVF actually 'decommisioned' the LVF.

joint government?? that's a long way away from what the volunteers died for and you failed to mention that it's a 'government' being propped up by the brits

[Jerry_Corneilus]

joint government?? that's a long way away from what the volunteers died for and you failed to mention that it's a 'government' being propped up by the brits


Well its certainly alot more then where RSFs stategy has got you.

[MarkyMark]

Sinn Fein got the best deal avalible, from being nobodies in 69 to joint govt in 2007.

Loyalists were not wiped out, rather put on a lesh after the Nelson affair in terms of information supply.

The loyalists showed they were still operationally capable in 94 with the attack on Loughin island.

While the INLA assassinated Wright it was the the UVF actually 'decommisioned' the LVF.

you dont have to be "operationally capable" to shoot dead innocent pensioners in a bar. Im sure any group could still walk in and do that today. That doesnt mean that they are still a threat, Just that they have 2 or 3 members with guns.

[Rory O'Connor]

I haven't heard of anything positive come of it and nothing bad apart from people moaning about connor murphy thats it.people

Have you not heard or read about the several nationalist/republican people who have been discriminated against by the RUC/PSNI because of their political opinions?

[McDaid--1916]

Poilicing is a key issue in any country, the police units who are on the ground are still those meber from the RUC, but it was mainly the fporce behind them that was the problem, the unionist and capatilist Chief of Police and his people. Now that sinn Fein is part of that conversations that was usually behind closed doors is now being brought into the open and police will be held accountable for there actions. I dont trust most police officers but im totally behind sinn fein and there current strategic move. Sinn Fein will ensure our children will grow up in a 32 county democratic and soverign republic.

[Rory O'Connor]

Were the RUC/PSNI "held accountable for their actions" by Provisional Sinn Féin when they broke Gary Donnelly's arm in Derry because of his political opinions?

[Hildy]

Probably not, but have they been held accountable when they arrested Tom Murphy???

Unidentified armed men smashed the driver’s window, injuring Tom’s brother. His wife believed that her husband had been shot and she was in fear of her life. Both Tom and his brother were dragged from the car and forcibly thrown onto the road. It was only at that stage the armed men identified themselves as members of the Garda Emergency Response Unit.

Tom Murphy was arrested and taken to Drogheda Garda station. Television coverage of Murphy’s subsequent court appearance in Ardee showed his face bruised and a cut under his eye. These injuries were caused by the impact of being forcibly dragged from the car by gardaí. When he was brought into Drogheda Garda station, the duty officer insisted that Tom Murphy be seen by a doctor. He was brought to hospital where the doctor was adamant that he should remain under observation in hospital overnight. That doctor insisted that Tom Murphy have it noted that he was signing himself out against medical advice.

Solicitors acting on behalf of Tom Murphy, his brother and his sister-in-law have made complaints about the nature of this arrest operation.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/21892

[FTA69]

No, which just shows the futility of the project. Likewise three Éirigi members are up on trumped up charges for assaulting police when the reality is that they were hammered away from a peaceful protest resulting in one man being knocked unconscious. This occurred in full view of senior SF members and the rest of the great and the good celebrating Stormont's re-opening.

Now I'm not saying that SF weren't concerned with the incident, rather that they themselves observed it, complained about it but yet had and have no power to change it.

[FTA69]

Jerry_C,

I too disagree with you, the head of the england campaign was quite ready to continue on with the attacks, there was no shortage in weaponry.

Was he? Seanna Walsh said different in a TV interview, declaring that the logistics of such operations were too difficult to pull off on a regular basis. Personally I feel the armed struggle should have been wound up around 1990.

[NorhtBelfastGirl]

joint government?? that's a long way away from what the volunteers died for and you failed to mention that it's a 'government' being propped up by the brits


Yes.. propped up by the brits and most likely being managed by the yanks - same old, same old

[Seabird]

NBG,

Yes.. propped up by the brits and most likely being managed by the yanks - same old, same old

:eek: WTF :icon_lol:

[NorhtBelfastGirl]

NBG,



:eek: WTF :icon_lol:


This surprises you?? Why? Their hands are in every pie from the north to the south poles.... What makes you think the Shinners havent been sitting down with them??