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Vox Populi
11-06-2007, 11:05 PM
Gerry Ruddy on the ideas of Ta Power

Ta Power was aged 33 when he was assassinated on the 20 th January 1987 by the IPLO [1] with John O'Reilly at the Rossnaree Hotel outside Drogheda. He and O'Reilly had gone to the hotel to reach an agreement with the IPLO. From Friendly Street in the Markets area of south Belfast, Ta had been in the OIRA [2] but joined the newly formed Irish National Liberation Army in 1975 while a prisoner in Long Kesh. Noted for having spent the longest time on remand (4 years and 4 months) on the word of super- grass [3] Harry Kirkpatrick, he was also held on the evidence of five different super-grasses, and had just been released from Crumlin Road gaol a short time before he was killed. Respected in republican circles, he was widely regarded as a soldier, a thinker and a theorist.

The ideas contained in the Ta Power Document have had an enormous influence on the Republican Left and was drawn up during his time in gaol. Ta was a self-educated republican socialist. During his time incarcerated he read the Marxist classics. He read avidly anything about Socialist Cuba and one of his dreams in gaol was to visit Cuba with his brother Jim. Neither made it. He was a true internationalist with a particular interest in the struggle of the Palestinian people.

I had the honour and privilege of speaking both at the graveside when Ta was being buried and also 16 years later at the unveiling of a monument to four dead INLA volunteers in the Markets area of Belfast in 2003. Two of those honoured were the brothers Power, Jim killed in action, 7 th May 1981, and Ta.

I began by quoting the words of Ta Power
“Revolutionaries are dead men on leave -- this saying sums up the type of life ahead for all who dare to oppose British rule in Ireland and indeed oppression and imperialism anywhere in the world. Life as a revolutionary offers no material rewards, no medals, only the joy of participating in the struggle for freedom. As individuals we only have a limited time to achieve this task”.
(Ta Power)

Those words, written by one of those volunteers, epitomises best the spirit of republicanism. It is a revolutionary doctrine, it is a radical doctrine, and it is a progressive doctrine. Those of us here today who call ourselves republicans should wear the mantle of republicanism with pride.

For there is pride in participating in the struggle for freedom. Those who we honour today knew some of that for they played their very active part in the struggle against Imperialism. Dedicated soldiers of the Republican tradition they grew up amidst repression, violence, discrimination and injustice. These things they observed but they did not ignore. They, like thousands of others, had enough of the daily humiliations from the Unionist state, enough of the casual brutality of the RUC, enough of the Imperialist swagger of the racists in the British army, enough of the “croppy lie down” mentality.

They had had enough of the cant and hypocrisy of the ruling elites who preached passivity in the face of violence, preached acceptance in the face of injustice, preached resignation in the face of inequality. Like thousands others, Jim, Ta, John and Emanuel had had enough. They did what any right thinking individual would do in the face of British and Unionist tyranny. They took up arms and fought in the streets of Belfast and elsewhere for the liberation of their people. In so doing they were following in a proud tradition stretching back to the United Irishmen, and including the Fenian Brotherhood, and the volunteers of the 1916-22 period.

Tomorrow, May 12 th marks the 87 th anniversary of the execution of James Connolly, socialist republican, founder of the Irish Citizen Army, murdered by the British establishment who tied a badly wounded man to a chair and shot him. Like our comrades we honour today, James Connolly walked the streets of Belfast organising the Mill Workers, the Dockers, the low paid. He organised the Irish working class in both political and military resistance. Connolly recognised that different situations require different responses. During the First World War he recognised that the time was ripe to take up arms against Imperialism. He saw that the struggle for the dignity and rights of the working class was part of the same struggle for national independence and that the social and economic parts of struggle could not be separated from the national struggle.

James Connolly was an inspiration, a guide, for all radicals and republicans. He inspired the volunteers we honour today. He was an example that each of those volunteers would have followed in their own ways if death had not intervened. They each had but a limited time to contribute to the struggle before death stole them away from us.

Jim Power was one of only two Republicans to die in action during the 1981 Hunger strike. He was killed defusing a bomb. Ta and John O’ Reilly died together when they were gunned down outside Drogheda where they had gone to peacefully resolve differences with others. Others killed Emanuel Gargan two months later in a pub on the Ormeau Road.

The latter three deaths at the hands of former comrades was a disgrace. Never again should any of us allow ourselves to view other Republicans either with hatred or as the enemy. A few weeks before his death I spoke with Ta in his home in the Markets here and he handed me a document, which included the following phrase,

“We must be vigilant that we don't sink into the morass of sectarianism, mixing, pettiness etc. We must not get involved in unprincipled slanging matches etc, into positions that are sectarian, anti-revolutionary, morally damaging, that give succour to the enemy and that confuse and divide the working class.”

Those wise words should be engraved in the minds of anyone who calls themselves a Republican. Friends and comrades the main enemy we all have is British Imperialism. Never, ever forget that.

It has been clear for some time that the vast majority of the Irish people favour Republicans using peaceful methods of struggle. That has to be respected for we all realise that different situations require different methods of struggle. There are huge social economic and political problems facing us all. If these are to be tackled then we need Republicans and Republican Socialists to throw their full wait into the political struggle for our full emancipation.

The unveiling of this plaque has been part of a process by which the Republican Socialist Movement pays homage to our dead volunteers and comrades. But friends and comrades they died trying to change this society. As indeed did many other republicans in other organisations who were good decent honest men and women who lost their lives fighting against injustices. Like so many others they never knew any life other than that of violent state repression firstly under the Stormont regime and then under the direct rule of the British government.

Life here should never have been such that young volunteers gave their lives to battle injustice. From whatever organisations volunteers came their sacrifices should be honoured by us all. To conclude, of each of them it may be said, to paraphrase the words of Ta, writing about his own brother Jim,
“He was born under a regime of repression and died fighting for liberty. In the words of George Jackson, on the death of his own brother: “I want people to wonder at the forces which created him, terrible, calm man-child, courage in one hand, the machine gun in the other, scourge of the unrighteous, an ox for the people to ride !"

Martyred Volunteers of the Irish National Liberation Army we salute you. (END SPEECH)

Ta’s death occurred as a consequence of the very things he had been warning the movement about in his writings, contempt for revolutionary politics. The IPLO contained most of the negative elements Ta criticised in his document. They, and who ever was manipulating them, could not abide the existence of the only revolutionary socialist tendency to emerge within the broad republican tradition. The attacks on the republican socialist movement were designed to wipe out any potential opposition to republicans doing a deal with the British.

The Irish Peoples Liberation Organisation’s spokesman said at the time,
"Republicanism in Ireland is adequately served by Sinn Fein and the IRA. If your talking about revolutionary socialism or communism, you`re talking about a further development. A new organisation at this point is premature."
In the same interview the spokesperson sneered at the decision taken relating to Marxism by the 1983 Ard Feis. Despite this decision taken at a democratically convened ArdFeis, followers of those who tried to liquidate the IRSP/INLA claimed that the INLA,

"was forcing an obscure and dogmatic form of Marxism-Leninism philosophy on the elected political leadership".

Such a claim was of course nonsense. In essence the liquidators hated the possibility of the primacy of politics emerging within the republican socialist movement [4]. To forestall that they were prepared to make unprincipled alliances and butcher revolutionaries. Their ideological confusion came from their mish-mash of half baked and badly digested socialist and republican ideas peppered with militarism and clique politics.

What lessons do we learn from the events that lead to the death of Ta? It is important to stress that the lessons we have learned in Ireland are, we believe, relevant to other struggles and other armed revolutionary organisations.

Involvement in a secret army can lead to an attitude of mind that sees conspiracies everywhere. Small differences can become magnified out of all proportion. Ta Power was well aware of this in gaol where the enclosed environment had led to a rapid deterioration in the relationships between former comrades. But Ta did not put this down to bad faith nor warped personalities. He analysed it in Marxist terms and saw clearly how the contradictions between Party and Army develop. When he was released from gaol he arranged to see me. I had been attempting over at least the previous two years - with little success - to stabilise the Party and forge a relationship with the INLA that was not the traditional republican model.

At that meeting in the Markets home of Ta Power a long conversation took place between us. I gave my interpretation of the then current political situation of the Party and what was possible and what was not.
The trouble from my point of view, and for any socialist who tries to win armed movements towards revolutionary political action, was that I did not have the mystique that goes with membership of the army.

Being an “operator” [5] always gives one more credibility than being a 'politico'. [6] However when Ta Power handed over his handwritten copy of his history of the party to me and I later read it, I was immediately aware that here was someone qualitatively different, not only from the militarists, but also most of the politicised soldiers inside armed organisations.
For a start it was clear he was a communist.

“The ideal which the working class alone possesses being the ideal of a communist way of life." and he called for the building of a revolutionary party. He had no contempt for the “politicos” On the contrary he argued every soldier should be a” politico” as well. Ta Power was a communist, an active member of the INLA and a member of the I.R.S.P. For Ta there was no contradiction at that time in having these positions. Like many a prisoner before him he had analysed, criticised and was now determined to implement a revolutionary path for the movement.

The death of Power robbed us of a powerful political figure but it gave us a tremendous role model. He was determined to ensure above all the primacy of politics and to unlock the power of the masses.

"We must be able to inject into the struggle or rather to call forth from the people the values and ideals of solidarity, self sacrifice, non sectarianism, unity, internationalism. Values that transcend our own individual existence, that lead to greater awareness, greater participation and greater aliveness in Oneself. We must somehow be able to grip the mass of the people if we are to change the world." (Power)

But in the situation that the Republican Socialist Movement was in when he came out of gaol the priority was internal. As Ta himself wrote, the leadership of the I.N.L.A. had no analysis nor strategy outside armed struggle itself. Armed struggle had become an end in itself. This had led to attitudes of elitism and superiority and to regarding the Party and its members with contempt. There was a lowering of standards where criminal elements and unsavoury characters are allowed entrance and rise to prominence in the army. Intelligent, sincere individuals had attempted to rectify the situation. They had failed. Why? Ta asserted they failed because of the basic contradiction between the Army and the Party. Both the INLA and the IPLO had members who claimed to be socialists and Marxists. But the bloodletting between them was the antithesis of what they claimed to stand for. It demoralised the catholic ghettoes, almost destroyed the fragile hold that Marxists had in a republican organisation and left the Provos [7] unchallenged leaders of the armed struggle.

Many individually committed Marxists had joined and participated in the activities of the various republican armies over the last thirty years. They learned that if one’s primary activity is military then one enters a world where there is little contact with different opinions. Those who supply safe houses are unlikely to be too critical. As a member of a close knit group in a close community where being in the 'Ra' [8] or in “B” [9] confers an almost mystical status, it is hard to be objective about the direction in which one’s movement is going. If one begins to harbour serious differences then military discipline can be used to sideline dissidents.

If there is dual membership then the Army will always pull rank, if it has to, and win if conflict arises. Ta Power, gave a very accurate picture of the pressures even committed socialists faced because,
"the struggle goes on; we get no analysis, we get no strategy outside the basic confrontation - it eventually becomes an end in itself due simply to the fact that they don’t know of any other strategy; other trends manifest themselves due to this for eg. psychological traits: there arises the condition of elitism, superiority etc. that 'we’re the lads, that this is the real macho way to do things, that those in A (the Party) are ******s, bluffers etc who always harp on about meaningless things'."

Party work is "beneath their style" and there is a contempt for politics. Then power building starts and there is "-a lowering of standards" which attracts criminal type elements, unsavoury characters and inept individuals. Marxists/Socialists in armed groups in Ireland became declassed, cut off from the mass of the class and forced to rely on one tiny section of one community. Her/his ideas could never gain hegemony within the movement.
Power quoted Lenin to point out that, "Their terrorism is not connected in any way with work among the masses, for the Masses, or together with the masses. It distracts our very scanty organisational forces from their difficult and by no means completed task of organising a Revolutionary Party,"and that the absolute complete subordination of the army to the party was essential.

His was then a lone voice. It is not anymore. More and more political activists not only in Ireland but around the world are coming to the same conclusions that Ta Power came to in the 1980’s. While it is not comfortable reading for the Republican Socialist Movement the Ta Power Document is essential reading for those serious about building a revolutionary Party to transform society. Ta dissects our past mistakes, points out the negative consequences of militarism and articulates the values that the collective leadership of the Party should espouse.

It was not until eight years after his death that the Republican Socialist Movement began to implement the ideas of Ta Power. As a result we now have had the longest sustained period of stable collective leadership the movement ever has had. But more important than that Irish revolutionaries recognise that armed struggle is simply a means of struggle to achieve revolutionary aims. It is a tactical decision whether or not to engage in armed struggle. Likewise it is a tactical decision to engage in peaceful methods of struggle. No genuine revolutionary movement can hope to survive by divorcing itself from the working class. Individual terroristic actions do exactly that. Our perspective is that armed action by any revolutionary movement should be in support of the working class, not in spite of it or in substitution for it. In the context of today’s Ireland and the enormous changes taking place in the composition of the working class revolutionaries need to be in support of, and responding to, the needs of the working class. We must not be a substitution for the class for once Revolutionaries go down the road of thinking that they know better than the class then elitism, terrorism and arrogance grow.

The Ta Power Document spells out clearly the road we must travel if we are to avoid the mistakes of the past. And therein lies lessons for militants of the national liberation and socialist struggles worldwide.

Gerry Ruddy,
Ard-Comhairle Member the Irish Republican Socialist Party,
December 2004

Hessian Peel
07-04-2008, 01:33 PM
We must not be a substitution for the class for once Revolutionaries go down the road of thinking that they know better than the class then elitism, terrorism and arrogance grow.

This is the mistake traditionalist Republicans have always made and continue to make today. The campaigns of the RIRA and CIRA in no way advance the interests of the working class nor are they intended to do so despite the occasionally lip service being paid to some vague ideal of socialism/social democracy. Due to the absence of any link to the working class or indeed any kind of mass support these groups are engaging in little more than apolitical individual terrorism. And the road of individual terrorism will always lead to Leinster House; to Stormont; to Westminster; to reformism.

This is the analysis which one derives from the political foundation that Ta Power and the RSM as a whole have committed themselves to. It's about time the RSM called on armed groups which remain offensively active to call ceasefires and pursue a different, more correct political approach.

Emiliano Zapata
07-04-2008, 01:40 PM
I completely agree comrade. Good post.:)

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 01:44 PM
This is the mistake traditionalist Republicans have always made and continue to make today. The campaigns of the RIRA and CIRA in no way advance the interests of the working class nor are they intended to do so despite the occasionally lip service being paid to some vague ideal of socialism/social democracy. Due to the absence of any link to the working class or indeed any kind of mass support these groups are engaging in little more than apolitical individual terrorism. And the road of individual terrorism will always lead to Leinster House; to Stormont; to Westminster; to reformism.

This is the analysis which one derives from the political foundation that Ta Power and the RSM as a whole have committed themselves to. It's about time the RSM called on armed groups which remain offensively active to call ceasefires and pursue a different, more correct political approach.

And those with no-first-strrike policies too.

RisenBelfast
07-04-2008, 01:49 PM
Good stuff but why has the thread resurfaced after all this time?

Hessian Peel
07-04-2008, 01:50 PM
And those with no-first-strrike policies too.

If the RSM properly implemented the Ta Power Document there's no reason why the INLA couldn't remain as long as it was in a disciplined manner and completely subordinate to the Party.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 01:51 PM
If the RSM properly implemented the Ta Power Document there's no reason why the INLA couldn't remain as long as it was in a disciplined manner and completely subordinate to the Party.

And disarmed.

Hessian Peel
07-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Good stuff but why has the thread resurfaced after all this time?

Well I thought it was badly needed with all the crap about the INLA doing the rounds on this forum at the moment and it's about time we had a proper discussion on here about the Ta Power Document and what Republican Socialists can learn from it.

belfast rep
07-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Good stuff but why has the thread resurfaced after all this time?
it is a mystery indeed, Like a sly old Vox he has his ways

Hessian Peel
07-04-2008, 01:53 PM
And disarmed.

I don't see that as a necessary requirement, but I wouldn't object to it all the same.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 01:56 PM
I don't see that as a necessary requirement, but I wouldn't object to it all the same.

I think it would be and it would make it harder for robbers in drag and other antisocial elements to get access to guns.

Hessian Peel
07-04-2008, 01:58 PM
I think it would be and it would make it harder for robbers in drag and other antisocial elements to get access to guns.

Are you f*cking kidding me?

Aye, it's definitely hard to get your hands on guns in Dublin these days. :eusa_silenced:

Emiliano Zapata
07-04-2008, 01:58 PM
I think it would be and it would make it harder for robbers in drag and other antisocial elements to get access to guns.

The INLA disarming would hardly make it more difficult for people to get guns.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 02:03 PM
Are you f*cking kidding me?

Aye, it's definitely hard to get your hands on guns in Dublin these days. :eusa_silenced:

Look at some of the people that have got there hands on INLA guns before lak the IPLO and Cue Ball's crowd. It would be better all round if they had no guns at all.

Red Revolutionary
07-04-2008, 06:17 PM
Look at some of the people that have got there hands on INLA guns before lak the IPLO and Cue Ball's crowd. It would be better all round if they had no guns at all.

Give it a fukcing break will ya?
I made my points clear on why the INLA are still active and armed.
If you want to adress that debate it in that thread instead of destroying another thread on your RSM bashing.

BTW great call Enver on this thread.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 09:31 PM
Give it a fukcing break will ya?
I made my points clear on why the INLA are still active and armed.
If you want to adress that debate it in that thread instead of destroying another thread on your RSM bashing.

BTW great call Enver on this thread.

It's a legitamate point you can't expect any Republican initiative to work until all the guns go away for good.

DublinRepublican
07-04-2008, 09:39 PM
It's a legitamate point you can't expect any Republican initiative to work until all the guns go away for good.

The bank robber was not a member of the INLA at the time.
Do you know how easy it is to get a gun in dublin these days?
So dont try and blame the this on the INLA or insinuate INLA weapons were used.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 09:43 PM
The bank robber was not a member of the INLA at the time.
Do you know how easy it is to get a gun in dublin these days?
So dont try and blame the this on the INLA or insinuate INLA weapons were used.

INLA weapons have been compromised too many times for there to be any faith in them.

DublinRepublican
07-04-2008, 09:43 PM
INLA weapons have been compromised too many times for there to be any faith in them.

How would you know?

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 09:48 PM
How would you know?

How would I know what?

DublinRepublican
07-04-2008, 09:50 PM
How would I know what?

About INLA weaponry.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 10:06 PM
About INLA weaponry.

And there was me thinking I was talking to somebody serious lak. Compromised INLA weapons...lets see now
The ones used at Darkley
The one used to kill Ta Power
The one used to kill Gino Gallagher
The one used to kill McAlorum's wee sister
The ones used in straight up sectarian murders
The ones used in the John O Grady kidnapping
And maybe the one used to kill Emmet Shields.
Wouldn't inspire a lot of confidence in the organisation lak.

DublinRepublican
07-04-2008, 10:32 PM
And there was me thinking I was talking to somebody serious lak. Compromised INLA weapons...lets see now
The ones used at Darkley
The one used to kill Ta Power
The one used to kill Gino Gallagher
The one used to kill McAlorum's wee sister
The ones used in straight up sectarian murders
The ones used in the John O Grady kidnapping
And maybe the one used to kill Emmet Shields.
Wouldn't inspire a lot of confidence in the organisation lak.
Darkley wasnt an INLA operation, What about the PIRA weapons used in that?
The INLA didnt kidnap John o Grady.
The INLA didnt kill Ta Power(the IPLO did).
Gino was murdered by people who were expelled.
What sectarian murders?
Mcalorums little sister wasnt intentional, an unfortunate accident.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 10:42 PM
Darkley wasnt an INLA operation, What about the PIRA weapons used in that?
Which ones, I never heard of any?
The INLA didnt kidnap John o Grady.
Dessie did using weapons that the INLA lost.
The INLA didnt kill Ta Power(the IPLO did).
And whos weapons were they before they became IPLO weapons?

Gino was murdered by people who were expelled.
And whos weapons did they take with them?
What sectarian murders?
Try Robin Farmer 1992
Mcalorums little sister wasnt intentional, an unfortunate accident.
Doesn't fu ckin make her any less dead.

Red Revolutionary
07-04-2008, 10:43 PM
It's a legitamate point you can't expect any Republican initiative to work until all the guns go away for good.
If you'll excuse me I think ill listen to James Connolly on this one instead of your esteemed self.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 10:50 PM
If you'll excuse me I think ill listen to James Connolly on this one instead of your esteemed self.

Aye it worked out well for him alright. He got a song and a train station but how many of his policies have been put into action by an Irish government?

Red Revolutionary
07-04-2008, 10:54 PM
Aye it worked out well for him alright. He got a song and a train station but how many of his policies have been put into action by an Irish government?

Ohh sorry I never realised the legislative ways of former Republican parties are leading us to a united Socialist Ireland, eg Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein.

The arrogance to think you know better than Connolly is astounding.
Another fantacist here.
This place is turning into a lunatic asylum.

Vox Illuminati
07-04-2008, 10:58 PM
Ohh sorry I never realised the legislative ways of former Republican parties are leading us to a united Socialist Ireland, eg Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein.

The arrogance to think you know better than Connolly is astounding.
Another fantacist here.
This place is turning into a lunatic asylum.

You are trying to hide behind Connolly as an excuse for having no argument and have managed to miss the point into the bargain.

Red Revolutionary
07-04-2008, 11:10 PM
You are trying to hide behind Connolly as an excuse for having no argument and have managed to miss the point into the bargain.

You pointed out Connollys failure.
Ive pointed out your theorys failures.
Nobody has gotten near a Republican Socialist 32 Count Ireland.
Im merely highlighting the fact that no set way is gauranteed results cause every way so far has yielded defeat.
So stateing that until the gun is removed from Ireland, we are doomed to failure is plain ignorance.
With the gun involved we are no more doomed to failure than without the gun.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 12:16 AM
You pointed out Connollys failure.
Ive pointed out your theorys failures.
Nobody has gotten near a Republican Socialist 32 Count Ireland.
Im merely highlighting the fact that no set way is gauranteed results cause every way so far has yielded defeat.
So stateing that until the gun is removed from Ireland, we are doomed to failure is plain ignorance.
With the gun involved we are no more doomed to failure than without the gun.

Wrong, physical force robs us of good people and leads to corruption.

Hessian Peel
07-05-2008, 01:30 PM
Wrong, physical force robs us of good people and leads to corruption.

Thanks for hijacking this thread you clown.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Thanks for hijacking this thread you clown.

I'm wild sorry hi, I have a subversive nature. We all do and properly organised it would be more effective than physical force.

Hessian Peel
07-05-2008, 01:39 PM
I'm wild sorry hi, I have a subversive nature. We all do and properly organised it would be more effective than physical force.

In human history significant change has only ever occurred through the use of force and that force is usually violent in nature. Do you honestly believe imperialism will retreat peacefully or that capitalism will be replaced without any backlash from the ruling classes?

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 01:43 PM
In human history significant change has only ever occurred through the use of force and that force is usually violent in nature. Do you honestly believe imperialism will retreat peacefully or that capitalism will be replaced without any backlash from the ruling classes?

The INLA are no defence against any backlash. Don't be coming at me with that crap.

Hessian Peel
07-05-2008, 01:46 PM
The INLA are no defence against any backlash. Don't be coming at me with that crap.

Never said they were.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 01:50 PM
Never said they were.

So what's the point in them existing again?

Red Revolutionary
07-05-2008, 01:51 PM
Wrong, physical force robs us of good people and leads to corruption.

Ahh just as I though, incapable of having a logical debate.
What you wrote there are mere personal opinions, that neither verify that armed struggle will lead to defeat or that the constitutional methods will work.
Granted good men will die in amred struggle, but that is the risk every volunteer takes up.
And since you have such a low opinion of the INLA then their deaths wouldnt be of good people?

My post was right, completely, I have provided eividence and not merely alluded to my own personal opinions.

BTW I dont support armed struggle at the moment, I think it will do more harm than good but that is not to say that armed struggle in the future might bring more advancement than constituional methods.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 01:58 PM
Ahh just as I though, incapable of having a logical debate.
What you wrote there are mere personal opinions, that neither verify that armed struggle will lead to defeat or that the constitutional methods will work.
Granted good men will die in amred struggle, but that is the risk every volunteer takes up.
And since you have such a low opinion of the INLA then their deaths wouldnt be of good people?

My post was right, completely, I have provided eividence and not merely alluded to my own personal opinions.

BTW I dont support armed struggle at the moment, I think it will do more harm than good but that is not to say that armed struggle in the future might bring more advancement than constituional methods.

:( I'm giving you a frowny face for lamest excuse ever.

Red Revolutionary
07-05-2008, 02:00 PM
So what's the point in them existing again?

I answered that in another thread and you didnt bother replying.
So dont destroy this one with you your RSM bashing.
So either answer that reply or **** off East tyrone you goofy cvnt.

Red Revolutionary
07-05-2008, 02:00 PM
:( I'm giving you a frowny face for lamest excuse ever.

East Tyrone.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 02:05 PM
I answered that in another thread and you didnt bother replying.
So dont destroy this one with you your RSM bashing.
So either answer that reply or **** off East tyrone you goofy cvnt.

You have no argument so now you want to throw insults and allegations. Whatever you wrote was probably some sh ite rhetorric not worth replying to. Dont be trying to smear me and discredit my argument.

Red Revolutionary
07-05-2008, 02:08 PM
You have no argument so now you want to throw insults and allegations. Whatever you wrote was probably some sh ite rhetorric not worth replying to. Dont be trying to smear me and discredit my argument.

East Tyrone.

Vox Illuminati
07-05-2008, 02:21 PM
East Tyrone.

Bullsh it

FIM-92
07-05-2008, 02:34 PM
Back on Topic, or Thread Ban

redflag32
07-06-2008, 07:36 PM
Wrong, physical force robs us of good people and leads to corruption.

Good point, however id have left the "good" out before people. Physical force robs us of people in general because it says to the people that the only way for social change is through an armed elite (which the IRA,INLA is). So it effectively gets rid of the very same people it needs to carry through the revolution. Physical force is only good when its the people using it,not an armed elite. This tactic is used by the nationalist bourgeoisie and in the end they always end up making a deal with the British bourgeoisie. This has been documented over history,i really dont see how people cant understand that its the people who need to rise and not an armed elite.

Vox Illuminati
07-06-2008, 08:40 PM
Good point, however id have left the "good" out before people. Physical force robs us of people in general because it says to the people that the only way for social change is through an armed elite (which the IRA,INLA is). So it effectively gets rid of the very same people it needs to carry through the revolution. Physical force is only good when its the people using it,not an armed elite. This tactic is used by the nationalist bourgeoisie and in the end they always end up making a deal with the British bourgeoisie. This has been documented over history,i really dont see how people cant understand that its the people who need to rise and not an armed elite.

Very good point and highly illustrative of how easily physical force is compromised by the corruption of the elites. A motivated people, armed or not, will always be more effective than an armed elite.

VENCEREMOS32
07-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Good point, however id have left the "good" out before people. Physical force robs us of people in general because it says to the people that the only way for social change is through an armed elite (which the IRA,INLA is). So it effectively gets rid of the very same people it needs to carry through the revolution. Physical force is only good when its the people using it,not an armed elite. This tactic is used by the nationalist bourgeoisie and in the end they always end up making a deal with the British bourgeoisie. This has been documented over history,i really dont see how people cant understand that its the people who need to rise and not an armed elite.

That’s a good point and I hear what you’re saying. I also like the colour of the flag, however do the people who have risen not become the armed elite eventually?

redflag32
07-07-2008, 03:21 PM
That’s a good point and I hear what you’re saying. I also like the colour of the flag, however do the people who have risen not become the armed elite eventually?

Not if the majority of them are armed. The physical aspect to the struggle could only last a few months anyway,then once the bourgeoisie have been smashed then the people can set about the organising of a democratic workers republic.

The weight of my point is not on the advantages of a mass physical uprising,but on the absurdity of an elite led one in relation to the working class struggle. Physical force may very well be needed,but my point is that if it is, it has to be led by the working class not an elite.

Just look at venezuella for an example of how social change could have been implemented without killing a single person. After the right-wing coup had been smashed by the mobilisation of the working class through peacfully taking to the streets all Chavez had to do was say the word and socialism could have been implemented. The bourgeoisie were on there knees,but he wanted to look like a nice president and he took the reformist position and didnt even lock the coup leaders up in jail. This allowed them to re-group and attack again.

My point is that revolution could have been achieved in Venezuela peacefully. In Russia the revolutionary action killed a handful of people aswell,there was no slaughter. Revolution does not equate physical force, but if guns are needed they have to be in the hands of the mass of people,not an elite.