View Full Version : Qualities needed for leadership
manus1916
12-06-2007, 05:03 PM
just wondering what peoples view are on qualities needed for leadership and what people feel constitutes an Incompetent leader?...........:hmmm:
just wondering what peoples view are on qualities needed for leadership and what people feel constitutes an Incompetent leader?...........:hmmm:
Depends on what organisation you are refering to. since you have posted this on the NeoSticky forum, I suppose the main traits needed is the lack of a back bone, willingness to become a paid informer and collaborator - and call on the Irish people to do the same - and, of course, a talent for telling lies.
Hildy
12-06-2007, 06:51 PM
Depends on what organisation you are refering to. since you have posted this on the NeoSticky forum, I suppose the main traits needed is the lack of a back bone, willingness to become a paid informer and collaborator - and call on the Irish people to do the same - and, of course, a talent for telling lies.
Cael, what kind of remark is this? A chance to take another "cheap shot"? Is this an example of you're organization or personal philosophy.........."conversational terrorism"?
Conversational Terrorism
"First, we have the Ad Hominem Variants where you attack the person as a way to avoid truth, science, or logic which might otherwise prove you wrong.
Next are the Sleight of Mind Fallacies, which act as "mental magic" to make sure the unwanted subject disappears.
Then, we move on to Delay Tactics, which are subtle means to buy time when put on the spot.
Then, the ever popular Question as Opportunity ploys, where any question can be deftly averted.
Finally, we have the Cheap Shot Tactics and Irritants, which are basically "below the belt" punches".
Any of these fit?:eusa_dance:
BTW, none of these qualify for leadership qualities!
robertemmett
12-09-2007, 06:02 PM
an ability to agree to every thing thr british tell us to.
Cael, what kind of remark is this? A chance to take another "cheap shot"? Is this an example of you're organization or personal philosophy.........."conversational terrorism"?
Conversational Terrorism
"First, we have the Ad Hominem Variants where you attack the person as a way to avoid truth, science, or logic which might otherwise prove you wrong.
Next are the Sleight of Mind Fallacies, which act as "mental magic" to make sure the unwanted subject disappears.
Then, we move on to Delay Tactics, which are subtle means to buy time when put on the spot.
Then, the ever popular Question as Opportunity ploys, where any question can be deftly averted.
Finally, we have the Cheap Shot Tactics and Irritants, which are basically "below the belt" punches".
Any of these fit?:eusa_dance:
BTW, none of these qualify for leadership qualities!
I afraid you have been wasting your time writing that post. This is not a game to be played by the marquis of queensbury rules. PSF supplies the English Crown with native ministers to administer English misrule in this country and are well paid by Her Majesty's government for doing so. FACT. PSF have called on Irish citizens to become Crown collaborators and informers. FACT. PSF have criticised the SDLP for undermining British misrule in Ireland and described them as a "problem party." FACT.
1. Leadership in the past. The best predictor of the future is the past.
2. The capacity to create or catch vision. When people talk about the future their eyes should light up.
3. A constructive spirit of discontent. "There's got to be a better way to do this,"
4. A willingness to take responsibility.
5. Mental toughness.
6. Peer and family respect.
7. Integrity.
8. A quality that makes people listen to them. When they speak, people listen.
Theres my leader. Gerry just doesnt measure up.
wherenow
12-10-2007, 12:48 AM
ni aontaim leat. Is ceannaire é Gerry.
You wrong. Anybody that can take massive sections of the republican movement down the road he has. Is some leader. I'm not saying he is right, but don't underestimate your opponent.
Mellows1922
12-10-2007, 02:26 AM
1. Leadership in the past. The best predictor of the future is the past.
2. The capacity to create or catch vision. When people talk about the future their eyes should light up.
3. A constructive spirit of discontent. "There's got to be a better way to do this,"
4. A willingness to take responsibility.
5. Mental toughness.
6. Peer and family respect.
7. Integrity.
8. A quality that makes people listen to them. When they speak, people listen.
Theres my leader. Gerry just doesnt measure up.
http://www.buildingchurchleaders.com/articles/1996/le-6l4-6l4030.html
don't use your own words when somebody elses will suffice eh ?
Glad to see you put so much internal dialogue into what really makes a great leader to you personally.
Vox Populi
12-10-2007, 06:19 AM
Collective leadership, collective responsibility. The issue does not concern Adams, McGuinness mainly. The important issue is the nature and make up of the organisation which allows a seamingly over-bearing and dictatorial figure to continue with few mechanisms for accounability or democracy.
ciaranxavier
12-10-2007, 09:38 AM
Depends on what organisation you are refering to. since you have posted this on the NeoSticky forum, I suppose the main traits needed is the lack of a back bone, willingness to become a paid informer and collaborator - and call on the Irish people to do the same - and, of course, a talent for telling lies.
lol ya for example in a gay rights march to be the leader id think youd have to be gay.
Seabird
12-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Mellows,
Good catch!! :eusa_dance:
A visionary, the ability to look beyond the current circumstances and see a future with promise. This person is quite capable through dialogue to bring many onto the same plane of sight. An excellent strategist that can overcome obstacles as they occur still keeping the vision alive. Can see things that are not even though others can't and bring them into fruitation. Holds onto his/her principles and objectives even at the cost of public ridicule,death threats, continues to forge ahead. Strong, dependable, forthright, dedicated remaining steadfast through the storms, holding onto the objective, goals and aspirations.
In the words of Gerry Adams:
"Let us ignore the naysayers and the begrudgers. Let us confound the skeptics and the cynics. Let us make hope and history rhyme. "
Can be caught in the storm yet still see the objective on the horizon when others can't. That to me is the qualities of a good, strond leader. Perseverance
It matters not where I got it, what matters is that those are the qualities that are PROVEN to ring true to all great leaders. For me personally integrity comes number 1. Gerry may possess some of those qualities but he definitely has no integrity left in my eyes. Integrity is when you wont sell anyone else out to buy your own future. Gerry did just that when he sold out our sovereignty and our prisoners rights. Hes led many down the garden path and its not coming up roses like he promised. How much longer will you follow that leader for? Until he leads you straight into a cemented UK state?
Seabird
12-10-2007, 12:46 PM
Plagerism comes to my mind!:hmmm:
I see the path that SF is on and I clearly see light at the end of the tunnel even though you can't. I feel you need to take your blinders off and look at reality instead of some romantic notion of there being any fruitation in a revolutionary armed campaign against the british state. The revolution continues through politics while others engage in idle gossip, slanderous accusations against the very ones that are doing the hard work. Just maybe if some would slow down, sit back and look at the entire picture you might just see the realities in SF's path. But then again that is hard to do when you're blinded by spoon fed british propaganda that has worked well in the ole divide and conquer theory.
Mellows1922
12-10-2007, 01:07 PM
It matters not where I got it, what matters is that those are the qualities that are PROVEN to ring true to all great leaders. For me personally integrity comes number 1.
Integrity is important ? So you swipe someboys elses words and pass em off as your own. Integrity indeed.
Either way, if all those things you listed really mattered to you, they would have simply rolled of the tongue, you wouldn't have to type "leadership qualities" into google and then copy and paste from whatever list you found, unless you are a frequent reader of buildingchurchleaders.com and the exact phrasology has been burned into your memory.
You'll forgive me if I pay little attention to your lecture on the integrity of others.
Seabird
12-10-2007, 01:13 PM
Integrity is important ? So you swipe someboys elses words and pass em off as your own. Integrity indeed.
Either way, if all those things you listed really mattered to you, they would have simply rolled of the tongue, you wouldn't have to type "leadership qualities" into google and then copy and paste from whatever list you found, unless you are a frequent reader of buildingchurchleaders.com and the exact phrasology has been burned into your memory.
You'll forgive me if I pay little attention to your lecture on the integrity of others.
Excellent post. . . dead on!:eusa_clap:
scarface
12-10-2007, 01:24 PM
But then again that is hard to do when you're blinded by spoon fed british propaganda that has worked well in the ole divide and conquer theory.
a provo saying that others are bilinded by brit propaganda now that is irony
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 01:55 PM
a provo saying that others are bilinded by brit propaganda now that is irony
The ability to know when to stop shooting before people are killed meaninglessly would be a good quality.
Although if you're of an RSF persuatuion I suppose being able to shoot random peelers for f*ck all would be a handy wee attribute.
ni aontaim leat. Is ceannaire é Gerry.
You wrong. Anybody that can take massive sections of the republican movement down the road he has. Is some leader. I'm not saying he is right, but don't underestimate your opponent.
I agree that Adams is an effective mis-leader.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 05:00 PM
I agree that Adams is an effective mis-leader.
I agree you're full of sh*t
Mellows,
Good catch!! :eusa_dance:
A visionary, the ability to look beyond the current circumstances and see a future with promise. This person is quite capable through dialogue to bring many onto the same plane of sight. An excellent strategist that can overcome obstacles as they occur still keeping the vision alive. Can see things that are not even though others can't and bring them into fruitation. Holds onto his/her principles and objectives even at the cost of public ridicule,death threats, continues to forge ahead. Strong, dependable, forthright, dedicated remaining steadfast through the storms, holding onto the objective, goals and aspirations.
In the words of Gerry Adams:
"Let us ignore the naysayers and the begrudgers. Let us confound the skeptics and the cynics. Let us make hope and history rhyme. "
Can be caught in the storm yet still see the objective on the horizon when others can't. That to me is the qualities of a good, strond leader. Perseverance
Did Gerry not realise how crass he sounds quoting Bill Clinton's soundbite based on a line from a poem that some Whitehouse spindoctor inserted into Clinton's speach? Mind you its not surprising, I doubt if an original thought ever passed through Gerry's mind. Its no wonder the Brits turned him so easily.
Hildy
12-10-2007, 05:09 PM
I agree you're full of sh*t
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Cael, whether you agree with his "leadership abilities" or not, please tell us what leadership qualities you're "leader" has in comparison.
I agree you're full of sh*t
You dont think that Adams mislead people when he told them that he would leave the Republican Movement if PIRA ever stopped its armed campaign? Or when he said that PSF would never accept Stormont? Never accept the British armed forces? Never collaborate with Crown misrule? Not a bullet not an ounce?
Was Gerry misleading people when a young mother was taken out and shot dead for suspected collaboration, and now he takes a Crown wage for administering Crown rule and calling on the Irish people to become informers?
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 05:12 PM
You dont think that Adams mislead people when he told them that he would leave the Republican Movement if PIRA ever stopped its armed campaign? Or when he said that PSF would never accept Stormont? Never accept the British armed forces? Never collaborate with Crown misrule? Not a bullet not an ounce?
Was Gerry misleading people when a young mother was taken out and shot dead for suspected collaboration, and now he takes a Crown wage for administering Crown rule and calling on the Irish people to become informers?
Not a bullet not an ounce is a CIRA slogan so I very much question your understanding of Gerry's policies.
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Cael, whether you agree with his "leadership abilities" or not, please tell us what leadership qualities you're "leader" has in comparison.
He realises that the Law of the Irish Republic cannot be reformed out of English Crown law. The Irish Republic is a creation of the Irish people alone, and cannot be legislated for by a foreign people and their parliament.
Not a bullet not an ounce is a CIRA slogan so I very much question your understanding of Gerry's policies.
This slogan came from PIRA originally, as there was never any question of CIRA surrendering the people's weapons to the enemy.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 05:18 PM
This slogan came from PIRA originally, as there was never any question of CIRA surrendering the people's weapons to the enemy.
People's weapon's my hairy fenian hole!
The CIRA are very unpopular among the majority of nationalists and republicans. They have a few dozen volenteers, they may embarass themselves by decommissioning as the independant decommissioning body laugh at them when they hand up there half a dozen rifles and a bullet each.
People's weapon's my hairy fenian hole!
The CIRA are very unpopular among the majority of nationalists and republicans. They have a few dozen volenteers, they may embarass themselves by decommissioning as the independant decommissioning body laugh at them when they hand up there half a dozen rifles and a bullet each.
You sould like a true free stater.
There is no question of the IRA surrendering anything to the Brits. Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile.
As for the amount of weapons the IRA have, its really of no importance. Weapons can always be obtained, but honour once lost, is very hard to regain. The important thing is to always remember that they are the Army of the Irish Republic, and that the Irish Republic is the only legitimate authority in Ireland. There can never be any question of collaboration with the enemy.
Irish Republican Patriot
12-10-2007, 05:35 PM
Well said Cael, but the simple truth is that concepts such as honour and being principled disappeared completely from the Adams Faction a LONG time ago.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 06:13 PM
Well said Cael, but the simple truth is that concepts such as honour and being principled disappeared completely from the Adams Faction a LONG time ago.
As long as say the 1986 Ard Fheis?
Mellows1922
12-10-2007, 06:18 PM
He realises that the Law of the Irish Republic cannot be reformed out of English Crown law. The Irish Republic is a creation of the Irish people alone, and cannot be legislated for by a foreign people and their parliament.
Is it a supreme lack of leadership that has resulted in the fact he can convince nobody to believe in what he has to say ?
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 06:22 PM
You sould like a true free stater.
There is no question of the IRA surrendering anything to the Brits. Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile.
As for the amount of weapons the IRA have, its really of no importance. Weapons can always be obtained, but honour once lost, is very hard to regain. The important thing is to always remember that they are the Army of the Irish Republic, and that the Irish Republic is the only legitimate authority in Ireland. There can never be any question of collaboration with the enemy.
"Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile."
Keeping in mind Bobby Sands and some of the great republican martyrs that you lads hold up so high were provos I strongly suggest you reconsider that statement.
Btw the CIRA must be the only army in the world made up of a few dozen members...ARMY MY HOLE!
Mellows1922
12-10-2007, 06:25 PM
There is no question of the IRA surrendering anything to the Brits. Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile.
There was nothing surrendered.
What is more degenerate - to take the war to the Brits as an Army or take no war to the Brits as an Army ?
The IRA fought when they believed it was in the interests of the struggle and took the decision to cease fighting when they believed it was in the interests of the struggle. These were principled decisions.
Where is the principle or honour in simply saying "well we can fight if we want to" but not doing so, and never having done so - this does not progress the struggle, all it does is fuel the ego of those involved and allows them the deluded luxury that they have something to offer the strugge (only if they choose to of course, and maybe on this their 21st birthday they may finally decide to, but we won't be holding our breath).
Mellows and Seabird, I did not type leadership qualities into google until now. I got those from one of my children's handouts from school and it has no reference on it. Since I see they are quoted exactly all over the net (and not just for a church leader) these are obviously universal qualities that are specific to good leadership.
These are qualities that indeed are inherent to good leaders. From what I know all of the great leaders of our time and of the past possess them. Gerry and co once possessed them before their sellout. Gerry has no vision aside from making big money and basking in the glory of self righteous indignation that he has somehow brought peace and promise of unity to poor ould troubled Ireland.
If anyone needs to take their blinders off it is you. I see things for how they are and Im not swayed by promises that amount to nothing for my people. Your piece of legislation will bring us nothing. Why would I ever stand behind it just because its the bearded one who endorses it? I see alot of sinn fein members who have a great faith in their leadership but when asked specifically what it is that makes them believe in the process so much are unable to answer. That is hero worship and not great leadership. I think sinn fein have bent over backwards to make something work that in reality, can never work.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 07:01 PM
Mellows and Seabird, I did not type leadership qualities into google until now. I got those from one of my children's handouts from school and it has no reference on it. Since I see they are quoted exactly all over the net (and not just for a church leader) these are obviously universal qualities that are specific to good leadership.
These are qualities that indeed are inherent to good leaders. From what I know all of the great leaders of our time and of the past possess them. Gerry and co once possessed them before their sellout. Gerry has no vision aside from making big money and basking in the glory of self righteous indignation that he has somehow brought peace and promise of unity to poor ould troubled Ireland.
If anyone needs to take their blinders off it is you. I see things for how they are and Im not swayed by promises that amount to nothing for my people. Your piece of legislation will bring us nothing. Why would I ever stand behind it just because its the bearded one who endorses it? I see alot of sinn fein members who have a great faith in their leadership but when asked specifically what it is that makes them believe in the process so much are unable to answer. That is hero worship and not great leadership. I think sinn fein have bent over backwards to make something work that in reality, can never work.
ah the great breaded one! Bowed down before his thick framed glass glory! lol
Gerry is not the be all and end all for SF supporters, I personally hate the PSNI with a passion. Acknowledge the sitituation from a political stand point rather than a moral one. Using policing as an example.
Approaching the newly revived Stormont, Sinn Féin going into power with the DUP they couldn't be seen not to support policing as it would have been a sign they did not support the peace process. Giving the DUP something to throw at SF later.
Get real. They couldnt do this , they couldnt do that.. who runs the show, the brits as usual.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 07:21 PM
Get real. They couldnt do this , they couldnt do that.. who runs the show, the brits as usual.
It is a propaganda war...you know that as well as I do
It is a propaganda war...you know that as well as I do
There are other ways to beat the propaganda aside from caving in to every whimper and whim of the brits.
I think the gfa was flawed from inception anyway so no amount of jumping through hoops is going to do anyone any good. Its only making sinn fein look the lap dog its become. Nothing personal lad but these are my opinions.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 07:41 PM
There are other ways to beat the propaganda aside from caving in to every whimper and whim of the brits.
I think the gfa was flawed from inception anyway so no amount of jumping through hoops is going to do anyone any good. Its only making sinn fein look the lap dog its become. Nothing personal lad but these are my opinions.
How is Sinn Féin made to look the lapdog?
the only thing sinn féin have done to even make life easy on the brits is by not opposing the reformed RUC. Think of the concessions given to republicans by accepting the GFA , even if it is flawed, which I agree it is, we can exploit some flaws to our advantage.
Seabird
12-10-2007, 07:43 PM
Bear,
Mellows and Seabird, I did not type leadership qualities into google until now. I got those from one of my children's handouts from school and it has no reference on it. Since I see they are quoted exactly all over the net (and not just for a church leader) these are obviously universal qualities that are specific to good leadership.
Well how convenient to have just found this information. Oh plZZZ so you think that we are all stuck on stupid. You googled this and now are trying to crawfish out of the picture. :icon_lol: PLease we are not stupid Bear, you are a joke. Always have been.
:icon_laugh:
These are qualities that indeed are inherent to good leaders. From what I know all of the great leaders of our time and of the past possess them. Gerry and co once possessed them before their sellout. Gerry has no vision aside from making big money and basking in the glory of self righteous indignation that he has somehow brought peace and promise of unity to poor ould troubled Ireland.
Yes they are. . . if you are in the church. :icon_lol: Do you live in Ireland? No you don't, even though you try very hard to make people think that you do.So you know why Gerry Adams does what he does and why? This is a man that has fought for a free and united Ireland when you were pooping in yer diapers and you think you have the right to judge him and his motives? Fukk you and your romantic notion of Ireland!!!!:angry:
If anyone needs yed by promises that amount to nothing for my people. Your piece of legislation will bring us nothing. Why would I ever stand behind it just because its the bearded one who endorses it? I see alot of sinn fein members who have a great faith in their leadership but when asked specifically what it is that makes them believe in the process so much are unable to answer. That is hero worship and not great leadership. I think sinn fein have bent over backwards to make something work that in reality, can never work.
You have no idea what SF will bring for tomorrow becuase you haven't a clue when it comes to what and who they are as an organization. I will leave this with you. . . you are a plagerizer, you have no intergity, you are a muppet for others. Good day!:)
Bear,
Well how convenient to have just found this information. Oh plZZZ so you think that we are all stuck on stupid. You googled this and now are trying to crawfish out of the picture. :icon_lol: PLease we are not stupid Bear, you are a joke. Always have been.
:icon_laugh:
Yes they are. . . if you are in the church. :icon_lol: Do you live in Ireland? No you don't, even though you try very hard to make people think that you do.So you know why Gerry Adams does what he does and why? This is a man that has fought for a free and united Ireland when you were pooping in yer diapers and you think you have the right to judge him and his motives? Fukk you and your romantic notion of Ireland!!!!:angry:
You have no idea what SF will bring for tomorrow becuase you haven't a clue when it comes to what and who they are as an organization. I will leave this with you. . . you are a plagerizer, you have no intergity, you are a muppet for others. Good day!:)
You wouldnt know me at all to know if I am stupid or not and considering Ive only been on this forum for a month or so thats quite the judgement call. As for plagurizing, I did not google it but feel free to do so. If I have found it on my wains homework pages and its on about ten different pages on the net (as Ive found out for myself) then so be it. It is simply a list of traits. Go google romantic qualities and Im sure you'll find similar lists of traits.
Do I live in Ireland? Why yes I do. How many months out of the year - none of your business. Do you? Do you hold Irish citizenship? Did you grow up in Ireland? Stop trying to discredit me because of where I choose to reside and work. Its simply none of your business and to pull it into a thread like this proves you are just trying to discredit me because of my views on sinn fein are not shared by you. When I did reside full time in Ireland I did not share gerrys view either so dont try to imply that I am some romantic-notioned child who is only following my chosen movement because I am naive. That is an insult not only to me but to everyone who doesnt agree with the politics of sinn fein.
I dont know what sinn fein stands for as an organization? Yes I do. I was once a member. Glad I shook that off.
Why would it matter how old I was when gerry fought the good war? You are implying that anyone under a certain age is not permitted to speak their mind or have their own opinions.
You appear to follow only the man and therefore the movement. It should be the other way around.
You keep giving me instances of why Gerry should be worshipped and respected yet you fail to tell me in any concrete way how he will reunite Ireland. Sinn fein is coming across as more and more like a cult every day. Only thanks to supporters such as yourself.
DublinRepublican
12-10-2007, 09:00 PM
Btw the CIRA must be the only army in the world made up of a few dozen members...ARMY MY HOLE!
How do you know the membership of the CIRA?
Quite simply, you dont, no one does.
Yes they are. . . if you are in the church. :icon_lol: Do you live in Ireland? No you don't, even though you try very hard to make people think that you do.So you know why Gerry Adams does what he does and why? This is a man that has fought for a free and united Ireland when you were pooping in yer diapers and you think you have the right to judge him and his motives? Fukk you and your romantic notion of Ireland!!!!:angry:
I dont know why your going onto people about living in Ireland.
Seabird you dont. Its obvious from the way you speak you do not. So dont try and get smart with other posters about not living in Ireland, when you dont yourself.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 09:01 PM
How do you know the membership of the CIRA?
Quite simply, you dont, no one does.
I dont know why your going onto people about living in Ireland.
Seabird you dont. Its obvious from the way you speak you do not. So dont try and get smart with other posters about not living in Ireland, when you dont yourself.
CAIN website mo chara...I'll link you if you wish becuase I was looking at it today and will still be in my history...
DublinRepublican
12-10-2007, 09:03 PM
CAIN website mo chara...I'll link you if you wish becuase I was looking at it today and will still be in my history...
I dont belive CAIN or any other Internet source. So theres not much use linking me mate. Most of these websites take a figure off the top of their head.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 09:05 PM
I dont belive CAIN or any other Internet source. So theres not much use linking me mate. Most of these websites take a figure off the top of their head.
It's an in depth study of the Troubles by the University of Ulster, not a bundle of random trivia and articiles like some internet sources.
mickyk200
12-10-2007, 09:18 PM
Well the FTO estimates the membership less than 50 hardcore members while Michael McDowell told the Daíl there was a maxium of 150 members but I wouldn't trust Michael McDowell as far as I could throw him.
DublinRepublican
12-10-2007, 09:21 PM
Well the FTO estimates the membership less than 50 hardcore members while Michael McDowell told the Daíl there was a maxium of 150 members but I wouldn't trust Michael McDowell as far as I could throw him.
I wouldnt belive either.
Is it a supreme lack of leadership that has resulted in the fact he can convince nobody to believe in what he has to say ?
Well, Ruairi O Bradaigh (sorry for the lack of fadas, Im in an internet cafe) is just saying what all Irish Republicans have been saying since the time of Wolfe Tone.
"Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile."
Keeping in mind Bobby Sands and some of the great republican martyrs that you lads hold up so high were provos I strongly suggest you reconsider that statement.
Btw the CIRA must be the only army in the world made up of a few dozen members...ARMY MY HOLE!
Yes, PIRA and PSF were once lead by Irish Republicans such as Ruairi O Bradaigh and Daithi O Connaill.
There was nothing surrendered.
What is more degenerate - to take the war to the Brits as an Army or take no war to the Brits as an Army ?
The IRA fought when they believed it was in the interests of the struggle and took the decision to cease fighting when they believed it was in the interests of the struggle. These were principled decisions.
Where is the principle or honour in simply saying "well we can fight if we want to" but not doing so, and never having done so - this does not progress the struggle, all it does is fuel the ego of those involved and allows them the deluded luxury that they have something to offer the strugge (only if they choose to of course, and maybe on this their 21st birthday they may finally decide to, but we won't be holding our breath).
Nobody suggested that the IRA cannot call a ceasefire and dump arms, as was done with honour at the end of the free state war and the border campaign. However, it is a truely degenerate act to destroy the people's weapons under the gaze of an English Crown appointed official, then take the soup as a Crown official yourself. This is not the action of an Irish Republican.
Seabird
12-10-2007, 09:42 PM
Bear,
You wouldnt know me at all to know if I am stupid or not and considering Ive only been on this forum for a month or so thats quite the judgement call.
Oh we all know who you are and what boards you post on, too bad you felt the need to change yer moniker. The only person you are fooling is yerself.
As for plagurizing, I did not google it but feel free to do so. If I have found it on my wains homework pages and its on about ten different pages on the net (as Ive found out for myself) then so be it. It is simply a list of traits. Go google romantic qualities and Im sure you'll find similar lists of traits.
Still trying to clean this up, we know exctly what you did, its sad that you are not woman enough to own up to yer own mistakes. . what mistakes you ask. . . you are incapable of thinking for yerself.
Do I live in Ireland? Why yes I do. How many months out of the year - none of your business. Do you?
:icon_lol: You do not live in Ireland as much as you would like people to believe. I am sure the mods could confim this with the IP address. ( not saying they would) Nor were you raised in Ireland, you pretty much fukked up when you had yer bebo account and posted yer life history and then decided to change it,stating that you lived in a certain city in the south.
Do you hold Irish citizenship? Did you grow up in Ireland?
:hmmm: Did I,do I????:)
Stop trying to discredit me because of where I choose to reside and work. Its simply none of your business and to pull it into a thread like this proves you are just trying to discredit me because of my views on sinn fein are not shared by you.
No this is an absolute lie, you discredit yer self.
When I did reside full time in Ireland
:icon_lol: :hmmm: :hmmm: when key word and I have my doubts about that.
I did not share gerrys view either
Is this why you are trying to sell a book signed by GA, why would you even buy his book?:icon_lol: Oh let me quess you didn't, someone just happen to give it to you.
so dont try to imply that I am some romantic-notioned child who is only following my chosen movement because I am naive.
It has beeen quite obvious in yer postings.
That is an insult not only to me but to everyone who doesnt agree with the politics of sinn fein.
No, only to you!
I dont know what sinn fein stands for as an organization? Yes I do. I was once a member. Glad I shook that off.
Bear you were a member of SF??? That would not be too hard to find info on, sure you want to hold up to this?? To be a member you MUST live in the country.
You appear to follow only the man and therefore the movement. It should be the other way around.
No I do not follow the man, I believe with my whole heart in a United Ireland, I feel SF is going in the direction to obtain this too bad you cannnot see it.
You keep giving me instances of why Gerry should be worshipped and respected yet you fail to tell me in any concrete way how he will reunite Ireland.
I have spoken numerous time on why and how I feel SF will bring a UI you just fail to comprehend my words. I do not worship GA nor will I ever. The only one I worship is my creator.
Sinn fein is coming across as more and more like a cult every day. Only thanks to supporters such as yourself.
Nah they aren't, you just cannot see the total pic because of your romantic desire to be a revolutionist in yer own mind. One day you will see the light and then you can tell your children how you hinder the progression for a United Ireland!!!
ártybhoy
12-10-2007, 09:52 PM
How do you know the membership of the CIRA?
Quite simply, you dont, no one does.
I dont know why your going onto people about living in Ireland.
Seabird you dont. Its obvious from the way you speak you do not. So dont try and get smart with other posters about not living in Ireland, when you dont yourself.
The peelers in the south and north know every single volunteer from the cira to the pira, it's their jobs to know these things you know that.
To gather intelligence is their bread and butter and boy do they like their grub.
The peelers in the south and north know every single volunteer from the cira to the pira, it's their jobs to know these things you know that.
To gather intelligence is their bread and butter and boy do they like their grub.
You hold these clowns in too much awe.
MartinP
12-10-2007, 10:17 PM
"Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile."
Keeping in mind Bobby Sands and some of the great republican martyrs that you lads hold up so high were provos I strongly suggest you reconsider that statement.
And to suggest that he and others like him were involved in a movement that even remotely resembles the modern day provisional movement is fairly silly.
I have nothing to hide about my life, aside from being cautious as this is the internet afterall.. why you are so obsessed with it is very odd to me.
I did live in Ireland, in Cork to be exact for many years. I also lived in Belfast and Dublin. Im glad that I hold two countries close to my heart. My upbringing between the two has given me a good perspective I believe.
Of course i was a member of sinn fein, Im not ashamed as at one stage I did believe they would lead us to a united Ireland. As for paying for Gerrys book - I didnt pay for it, it was a gift. I want to sell it to raise money for our current prisoners, along with many other things from that point in my life. If your interested make me an offer. I dont care who buys the ****ing thing, it means absolutely nothing to me. Do you take that as a personal insult?
Check my ip all you want - its not hard to do. I am here now, last week I was there. Your a lunatic and I can see now why many others have told me you are a net stalker. I hold a dual citizenship. You jealous? You dont like me because I express my views and those views are contradictory to yours. You have personalized this and therefore debate with you is a waste of my time.
ps. I hear they are looking for a seahag to run the ferry cross to Cobh these days, you should apply. Oops, couldnt resist, you bring out the catty woman in me :)
Rory O'Connor
12-10-2007, 10:40 PM
"Only self castrated degenerates like PIRA would comtemplate something so vile."
Keeping in mind Bobby Sands and some of the great republican martyrs that you lads hold up so high were provos I strongly suggest you reconsider that statement.
Btw the CIRA must be the only army in the world made up of a few dozen members...ARMY MY HOLE!
The 26th of July Movement, led by the same man that you have quoted in your signature, was estimated to have less than 80 volunteers.
Seabird
12-11-2007, 05:52 AM
DR,
Seabird you dont. Its obvious from the way you speak you do not. So dont try and get smart with other posters about not living in Ireland, when you dont yourself.
I commend you for wanting to stick up for a fellow commrade but its wise to know the history before doing so. I haven't a problem with anyone, any where in this world supporting Ireland's struggle for freedom, God knows that I did it for many years from the comforts of my home in America. However I do have a major problem with misrepresenting your self while slandering others through private messaging and on the live chat sites, what a person does in the dark will always come to light. I have even a bigger problem with the ones that do not live in Ireland pushing an armed campaign agenda when this will have no affect/effect on their little corner of the world. This is my opinion only whether you like it or not is of little importance to me.
As for me living in Ireland,:hmmm: don't assume you know anything about me, it might come back to bite you in the butt.
Seabird
12-11-2007, 06:08 AM
Bear,
Bravo, great post, thats the girl we all know!!:icon_lol: As always it is blah blah blah.:eusa_clap:
mickyk200
12-11-2007, 07:40 AM
And to suggest that he and others like him were involved in a movement that even remotely resembles the modern day provisional movement is fairly silly.
The PIRA in 1981 was the same PIRA here in 2007...
The tactics have changed, it's the same organization. I love it that you RSF lads can pick and choose what is wrong with the provisional movement.
mickyk200
12-11-2007, 07:41 AM
The 26th of July Movement, led by the same man that you have quoted in your signature, was estimated to have less than 80 members.
Yes but my signiture itself discredits the CIRA from Che's eye's anyway.
ciaranxavier
12-11-2007, 09:43 AM
The PIRA in 1981 was the same PIRA here in 2007...
The tactics have changed, it's the same organization. I love it that you RSF lads can pick and choose what is wrong with the provisional movement.
theres a big differance between the PIRA circa 1981 and PIRA circa 2007 and the biggest one is the fact they are now the PIR without the A because there not an army.
ciaranxavier
12-11-2007, 09:45 AM
CAIN website mo chara...I'll link you if you wish becuase I was looking at it today and will still be in my history...
how can you believe CAIN when they label revolutionary forces as terrorists?
CAINS a load of ****.
ciaranxavier
12-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Do you live in Ireland? No you don't, even though you try very hard to make people think that you do.So you know why Gerry Adams does what he does and why? This is a man that has fought for a free and united Ireland when you were pooping in yer diapers and you think you have the right to judge him and his motives? Fukk you and your romantic notion of Ireland!!!!:angry:
you dont live in ireland either for one, and if gerrys above and beyond the judgement of us younger men then whos going to question his choices? are we supposed to let him have free reign to do what he wants and just assume hell make the right choices and not question his policys and paths? i think its fairly ignorant for you to say to anyone they dont have the right to an opinion. i may not have been old enough to fully remember the troubles and i never lived in the north (im a meath boy) but i have the right to an opinion as does anyone else who has the blood of our ancestors flowing through their veins. (and some who dont HAH)
mickyk200
12-11-2007, 10:30 AM
how can you believe CAIN when they label revolutionary forces as terrorists?
CAINS a load of ****.
They have to, to remain somewhat unbias. They cannot label the loyalists as the terrorists they are and then call republicans freedom fighters as the huns would yap.
Mellows1922
12-11-2007, 10:51 AM
you dont live in ireland either for one,
Where are you getting your information from ?
DR,
I commend you for wanting to stick up for a fellow commrade but its wise to know the history before doing so. I haven't a problem with anyone, any where in this world supporting Ireland's struggle for freedom, God knows that I did it for many years from the comforts of my home in America. However I do have a major problem with misrepresenting your self while slandering others through private messaging and on the live chat sites, what a person does in the dark will always come to light. I have even a bigger problem with the ones that do not live in Ireland pushing an armed campaign agenda when this will have no affect/effect on their little corner of the world. This is my opinion only whether you like it or not is of little importance to me.
As for me living in Ireland,:hmmm: don't assume you know anything about me, it might come back to bite you in the butt.
I have not misrepresented myself at all. My comrades and those I trust know exactly where and how I grew up. Because I choose to reside right now in a different country has no relevance whatsoever. You are simply trying to discredit my opinion because I work in a different country. As for having no effect on my world, you dont know me or how anything has affected my life at all.
I think you have a problem with paranoia. I pm no one about you. Feel free to ask the entire board here if Ive ever sent them a pm regarding you. If you think I do your suffering from some grandious idea that you actually play some part in my life - which you do not.
From what you are saying here I gather that any Irish person who works or resides in a different country for any length of time is not entitled to have any views aside from ones that you have. Interesting.
ciaranxavier
12-11-2007, 11:28 AM
They have to, to remain somewhat unbias. They cannot label the loyalists as the terrorists they are and then call republicans freedom fighters as the huns would yap.
loyalists are foreign invaders and republicans ARE freedom fighters so to say in glamorous words.
ciaranxavier
12-11-2007, 11:29 AM
Where are you getting your information from ?
her previous posts, if she resides there now its a recent move.
mickyk200
12-11-2007, 11:30 AM
loyalists are foreign invaders and republicans ARE freedom fighters so to say in glamorous words.
YES but to stay unbias they refer to them both as terrorists...
loyalists would see it the other way round and call us terrorists and themselves freedom fighters, complete bollocks I know but as to cater to no-one rather than one side they call both sides terrorists.
I fail to see how this is grounds for their unrelibilty.
YES but to stay unbias they refer to them both as terrorists...
loyalists would see it the other way round and call us terrorists and themselves freedom fighters, complete bollocks I know but as to cater to no-one rather than one side they call both sides terrorists.
I fail to see how this is grounds for their unrelibilty.
Im sure nobody in the British establishment is calling their Crown ministers "terrorists."
robertemmett
12-12-2007, 03:38 PM
yes but there psf people here who are Ministers of the Crown
mickyk200
12-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Im sure nobody in the British establishment is calling their Crown ministers "terrorists."
No but they have so seem ligitmate at the very least...
Hildy
12-12-2007, 03:44 PM
Im sure nobody in the British establishment is calling their Crown ministers "terrorists."
I will disagree with you there. I have it through good sources, that indeed some of the "british establishment" in the North are appalled that their "crown ministers" are cavorting with the 'enemy' and sharing parliamentary duties with them, and having their police answer to them as well. So in essence its worse than calling them 'terrorists' as they are guilty by association! Ha! Like I said before, makes me smile knowing that DUP are sharing powers with SF!
robertemmett
12-12-2007, 04:16 PM
I will disagree with you there. I have it through good sources, that indeed some of the "british establishment" in the North are appalled that their "crown ministers" are cavorting with the 'enemy' and sharing parliamentary duties with them, and having their police answer to them as well. So in essence its worse than calling them 'terrorists' as they are guilty by association! Ha! Like I said before, makes me smile knowing that DUP are sharing powers with SF!
can we knock this fallacy on the head that cops now answer to Sinn Fein. this is deliberate misinformation.
it is the type of cliche used on the doorsteps to canvas people.
the cops are not answerable to sinn fein at all.
the dpps are pointless talking shops.
bernice swift was suspended from the party for speaking hersey.
gerry mc hugh voiced similar concerns.
strabane etc
i would expect that establishment are rubbing their hand in glee that psf were so easily led.
Hildy
12-12-2007, 04:22 PM
Well believe what you want.....I happen to think its making a difference, whether they are small steps or not. A lot of big changes are happening with small steps! and I for one applaud their efforts!:eusa_clap:
Irish Republican Patriot
12-12-2007, 06:26 PM
Yes, Hildy, this is the Adams Faction's grand strategy for a United Ireland: behave like good little obedient British subjects in the hope that their masters in the British government and the DUP will throw them a few derisory scraps every now and again. What a pack of fools you lot are.
Hildy
12-12-2007, 06:44 PM
Yes, Hildy, this is the Adams Faction's grand strategy for a United Ireland: behave like good little obedient British subjects in the hope that their masters in the British government and the DUP will throw them a few derisory scraps every now and again. What a pack of fools you lot are.
Whatever.......http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s6/hildydonovan/Emoticons/noway-1.gif
I for one would spit on the british government.....so you know nothing about obediency, they are your masters not mine.....and there is nothing you can do about it unless you blow them to smithereens which is not going to happen, so get into the 21st century, ffs.......the only fools I see are those clinging to the past hoping for another rally against the troops.....well look around IRP, those days are long gone. Get a grip and do something useful for the cause instead of laying all the blame at the feet of SF and whinging about it!
Irish Republican Patriot
12-12-2007, 07:00 PM
Hildy, you may not choose to accept it, but the fact is that by your cringing support for the Adams Faction you have wrapped yourself in the Butcher's Apron. Your refusal to accept it is largely irrelevant. You can castigate me for idleness, but I can at least say with honesty that I do not subscribe to "Unionism".
robertemmett
12-12-2007, 07:05 PM
Whatever.......http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s6/hildydonovan/Emoticons/noway-1.gif
I for one would spit on the british government.....so you know nothing about obediency, they are your masters not mine.....and there is nothing you can do about it unless you blow them to smithereens which is not going to happen, so get into the 21st century, ffs.......the only fools I see are those clinging to the past hoping for another rally against the troops.....well look around IRP, those days are long gone. Get a grip and do something useful for the cause instead of laying all the blame at the feet of SF and whinging about it!
the fact that the british government remians soverign, it has the ability to pull stormont whenever it desires. therefore hildy the brits reamain our masters. yes sf have been given the ability to admin a brit given budget in the 6co.
but outline how we move from well run stormont regime to united ireland
what are those tranfer mechanism?
will there come day when we dismantle the stormont government
Hildy
12-12-2007, 07:51 PM
Hildy, you may not choose to accept it, but the fact is that by your cringing support for the Adams Faction you have wrapped yourself in the Butcher's Apron. Your refusal to accept it is largely irrelevant. You can castigate me for idleness, but I can at least say with honesty that I do not subscribe to "Unionism".
Nor do I! If it was my choice they would all be sent back home and put on boats with gaping holes in the bottom. And if the truth be known, that's what GA would do as well, but this is reality and we can't do that, so why not fight them at their own game! We will eventually get them out, I do believe that, and without murder and corruption of innocent lives.
Seabird
12-12-2007, 07:59 PM
Hildy,
Put up the good fight because we know we are right, don't worry about the war mongers they will be their own demise!:icon_lol:
ciaranxavier
12-12-2007, 08:00 PM
Whatever.......http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s6/hildydonovan/Emoticons/noway-1.gif
I for one would spit on the british government.....so you know nothing about obediency, they are your masters not mine.....and there is nothing you can do about it unless you blow them to smithereens which is not going to happen, so get into the 21st century, ffs.......the only fools I see are those clinging to the past hoping for another rally against the troops.....well look around IRP, those days are long gone. Get a grip and do something useful for the cause instead of laying all the blame at the feet of SF and whinging about it!
history would prove you wrong.
ciaranxavier
12-12-2007, 08:01 PM
not war mongers, were realists. you cant try your way but inevitably we will have to take up arms.
Irish Republican Patriot
12-12-2007, 08:10 PM
If we are war mongers, Seabird, your lot are a pack of ****ing cowards.
ciaranxavier
12-12-2007, 08:16 PM
If we are war mongers, Seabird, your lot are a pack of ****ing cowards.
or treasonous but i dont think they like those terms being coined for them.
MartinP
12-12-2007, 09:33 PM
The PIRA in 1981 was the same PIRA here in 2007...
The tactics have changed, it's the same organization. I love it that you RSF lads can pick and choose what is wrong with the provisional movement.
Don't be ridiculous. Since 1981 there have been two splits relevent to the current provisional movement. Firstly in 1986, when they moved to accept constitutionalism in the 26 counties, and secondly, the split from which the 32CSM was born. In the former split, those leaders who went on to reorganise as Sinn Féin Poblachtach were largely the same leading people who reorganised in 1969/70. A sizeable section of what is now the provisional movement are ceasefire soldiers - people who, were it not for the ceasefire, would never have become involved in 'the republican movement'. Current day PSF would be closer to FF in 1930 than 1981 Sinn Féin. The provisional military wing is nothing like the IRA of 1981.
ártybhoy
12-12-2007, 10:06 PM
DR,
I commend you for wanting to stick up for a fellow commrade but its wise to know the history before doing so. I haven't a problem with anyone, any where in this world supporting Ireland's struggle for freedom, God knows that I did it for many years from the comforts of my home in America. However I do have a major problem with misrepresenting your self while slandering others through private messaging and on the live chat sites, what a person does in the dark will always come to light. I have even a bigger problem with the ones that do not live in Ireland pushing an armed campaign agenda when this will have no affect/effect on their little corner of the world. This is my opinion only whether you like it or not is of little importance to me.
As for me living in Ireland,:hmmm: don't assume you know anything about me, it might come back to bite you in the butt.
Enough please this is getting tiresome. As for me living in Ireland, don't assume you know anything about me, it might come back to bite you in the butt.
_________ That could be seen as a threat please leave this childish crap outside of the forum.
Thanks Arty, it is very tiresome indeed and you are right about threats. Stalking someone from the net to real life is just plain whacko.
ártybhoy
12-12-2007, 10:17 PM
If we are war mongers, Seabird, your lot are a pack of ****ing cowards.
The republican army that fought the british to the table for the the longest period of time in history won't go down in history as cowards.
Watch what your saying please you are breaking rules.
ártybhoy
12-12-2007, 10:40 PM
Don't be ridiculous. Since 1981 there have been two splits relevent to the current provisional movement. Firstly in 1986, when they moved to accept constitutionalism in the 26 counties, and secondly, the split from which the 32CSM was born. In the former split, those leaders who went on to reorganise as Sinn Féin Poblachtach were largely the same leading people who reorganised in 1969/70. A sizeable section of what is now the provisional movement are ceasefire soldiers - people who, were it not for the ceasefire, would never have become involved in 'the republican movement'. Current day PSF would be closer to FF in 1930 than 1981 Sinn Féin. The provisional military wing is nothing like the IRA of 1981.
A sizeable section of what is now the provisional movement are ceasefire soldiers - people who, were it not for the ceasefire, would never have become involved in 'the republican movement'. Current day PSF would be closer to FF in 1930 than 1981 Sinn Féin. The provisional military wing is nothing like the IRA of 1981. Thats balls, there is a large ammount of sf people who have heavy previous behind them as for the rest whats wrong with being on the fringes,not going to jail getting an education for the then obvious political future for republicans.
Ceasefire soldiers? thats a peach if it wasn't for Ruari O'Bradaigh the whole of RSF wouldn't have 1 IRA man with a history of active service Ruari is the only man that gives any military credentials to rsf well Tommy McKearny and francis macky aswell, thats it thats all i can think off.
Seabird
12-12-2007, 11:01 PM
arty,
Shame on you of all people.
Bear,
I don't give a flying **** what you do, so please don't fancy yerself as someone that anyone would want to stalk. If I recall correctly I was here and you came looking for trouble. Now please leave me the fukk alone, can you comprehend that?
MartinP
12-12-2007, 11:09 PM
Ruairi, the late Daithi Ó'Conaill, Billy McKee, and others within and involved with the organisation have all held senior positions in the Army. Several people I haven't mentioned who have a military background are currently members of the Ard Comhairle. Of the candidates who contested the Stormont election for the organisation back in March at least half have done time for military related activity (others have been interned). To claim that one person who's a current member of RSF is alone in having military credentials only goes to highlight your own ignorance on the matter. In the same vein, McKearney to my knowledge is not a member, and Francis Mackey is chairperson of the 32CSM. And a large section of what makes up the provisional party ARE ceasefire soldiers.
Seabird
12-12-2007, 11:22 PM
Tellme just what are they doing to reunify Ireland?
I came to this forum because I was invited. I'm happy to spread the word of the 32csm wherever I go, as I see my movement as being on the forefront of unifying my homeland.
I believe in the movement and in the people who work very hard day in and day out to give true republicans a voice and a choice. We are an alternative to accepting brit rule in Ireland.
I encourage anyone who is fed up with the current stagnant process to contact the 32csm. We care about the future and sovereignty of Ireland, the hard working men and women of Ireland, and the political hostages that sinn fein's gfa left abandoned and criminalized. We dont accept that the psni is our police force, nor do we accept that the british have any right in Ireland.
Now I hope that clears up any confusion as to why I post on these forums. If I wanted to bash rich debutante ladies I'd post on the shopping channel. :)
Hildy
12-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Oh get off yer high-horse Bear, that is so lame! No one cares why you came to this forum. We just know the crapsite you came from and you fit in better there when all you want to do is bash SF at every opportunity. This forum is not like that and will not tolerate it, the forum doesn't need this kind of division.
You and your group's beliefs are no better than anyone else and their beliefs on this forum......so if all you want to do is expound on why you believe in your affiliation and why you want to spread the word, then do it, but leave the bashing out of it~! You are no better than anybody else and you have no right to say that SF does not care about the future and sovereignty of Ireland! They are just as hardworking as anybody else, you do NOT have a corner on that market, so cut the crap!
And stop categorizing people here that you don't know, even though you think you know all about them, you don't! So keep your catty little comments to yerself, its getting old. Tell us something inspiring that we don't know already! Dazzle us with all yer brilliance and quit feigning the little innocent!
ciaranxavier
12-13-2007, 09:44 AM
arty,
Shame on you of all people.
Bear,
I don't give a flying **** what you do, so please don't fancy yerself as someone that anyone would want to stalk. If I recall correctly I was here and you came looking for trouble. Now please leave me the fukk alone, can you comprehend that?
didnt you just see artyboy telling people to watch their mouth, i dont recall you having special priviliges.
ciaranxavier
12-13-2007, 09:45 AM
Tellme just what are they doing to reunify Ireland?
theyll be the crutch you guys fall back to when your silly plan to try it through the english system fails.
ciaranxavier
12-13-2007, 09:47 AM
Oh get off yer high-horse Bear, that is so lame! No one cares why you came to this forum. We just know the crapsite you came from and you fit in better there when all you want to do is bash SF at every opportunity. This forum is not like that and will not tolerate it, the forum doesn't need this kind of division.
You and your group's beliefs are no better than anyone else and their beliefs on this forum......so if all you want to do is expound on why you believe in your affiliation and why you want to spread the word, then do it, but leave the bashing out of it~! You are no better than anybody else and you have no right to say that SF does not care about the future and sovereignty of Ireland! They are just as hardworking as anybody else, you do NOT have a corner on that market, so cut the crap!
And stop categorizing people here that you don't know, even though you think you know all about them, you don't! So keep your catty little comments to yerself, its getting old. Tell us something inspiring that we don't know already! Dazzle us with all yer brilliance and quit feigning the little innocent!
freedom of speech, if thats what he thinks of your party then who are we to tell him not to. anyways criticism is necessary for success.
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 11:46 AM
theyll be the crutch you guys fall back to when your silly plan to try it through the english system fails.
SF will rely on itself alone and no other republican organisation. What makes you think that when the Stormont government collapses (which it will eventually) all the shinners will go running to RSF to support?
Balls they will...they'll hit back at the British governemnt like they have for the past 30 odd years
DublinRepublican
12-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Enough please this is getting tiresome. That could be seen as a threat please leave this childish crap outside of the forum.
Im not particularly worried belive it or not. As you said people really need to stop trying to act hard on the Internet. This is a forum for civil debate. All those argueing over about 20 threads need to grow up!
Irish Republican Patriot
12-13-2007, 01:47 PM
If you really want the Stormont "government" to collapse (another bald lie - your lot are far too comfortable with their ministerial pay cheques and Mercedes to want that to happen) then why don't you actually do something to make it happen. After all, you're quick enough to attack other Republicans for not doing the same.
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 02:03 PM
It will fall by itself...
and I'm not getting any cheques or a merc for standing by sinn fein and I assure you if I was it wouldn't make a difference except I would have s clio =P
The Stormont regime will collapse by its own accord without any bloodshed
Irish Republican Patriot
12-13-2007, 02:12 PM
Keep dreaming boyo, your lot have gotten fairly good at that.
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 02:14 PM
Keep dreaming boyo, your lot have gotten fairly good at that.
As your lot believe they can win an impossible fight...a few dozen volenteers with no representives in government will take down the might of the British commonwealth...aye good luck with that.
scarface
12-13-2007, 03:49 PM
Thats balls, there is a large ammount of sf people who have heavy previous behind them as for the rest whats wrong with being on the fringes,not going to jail getting an education for the then obvious political future for republicans.
Ceasefire soldiers? thats a peach if it wasn't for Ruari O'Bradaigh the whole of RSF wouldn't have 1 IRA man with a history of active service Ruari is the only man that gives any military credentials to rsf well Tommy McKearny and francis macky aswell, thats it thats all i can think off.
your lack of knowledge is frightening
kev86
12-13-2007, 05:25 PM
Thats balls, there is a large ammount of sf people who have heavy previous behind them as for the rest whats wrong with being on the fringes,not going to jail getting an education for the then obvious political future for republicans.
Ceasefire soldiers? thats a peach if it wasn't for Ruari O'Bradaigh the whole of RSF wouldn't have 1 IRA man with a history of active service Ruari is the only man that gives any military credentials to rsf well Tommy McKearny and francis macky aswell, thats it thats all i can think off.
Then you clearly no very little about RSF,the majority of the older members of RSF were active and some of them very senior volunteers.
As your lot believe they can win an impossible fight...a few dozen volenteers with no representives in government will take down the might of the British commonwealth...aye good luck with that.
No representatives in government? The AC of CIRA are THE GOVERNMENT.
I can safely say that the only thing anyone needs to be in the NeoSticky Misleadership is MI5 approval.
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 06:40 PM
No representatives in government? The AC of CIRA are THE GOVERNMENT.
LMFAO!! ah cheers man I was p*ssed off til I read that...that's made my day =]
wherenow
12-13-2007, 06:41 PM
No representatives in government? The AC of CIRA are THE GOVERNMENT.
Na bi amadach.
Don't be so silly. Go tell that to the vast majority of people and you will be laughed out of town. Go on head into an ordinary pub and ask who the government of Ireland is.
It is rediculous, out of touch with reality comments like this that give those republicans opposed to SF a bad, sorry rediculous name.
Mellows1922
12-13-2007, 07:07 PM
No representatives in government? The AC of CIRA are THE GOVERNMENT.
Any sign of the government dealing with it's law enforcers who took the shovel into their own hands ?
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 07:14 PM
I can safely say that the only thing anyone needs to be in the NeoSticky Misleadership is MI5 approval.
After that last comment about the CAC I doubt you'll find many people to believe that one =P
freedom of speech, if thats what he thinks of your party then who are we to tell him not to. anyways criticism is necessary for success.
The problem is that anyone who critisizes sinn fein is either threatened, murdered or at the very least made to be discredited through the use of slander and lies. I dont need to prove any of the above - we all know the instances I speak of here.
They can say what they like about me, it doesnt affect me or the work I do, I care not to be in the limelight, Im not a politician worried about how good I appear on camera or in front of Bush airbrushing out the dirty details of the last 30 odd years in order to sell a chunk of Antrim to a billionaire who wants to build a golf course.
I surround myself with those that care about Irelands sovereignty, not about money or building some quarter million pound political office in order to keep up appearances.
I care about my country and want it reunited. Plain and simple. Im too impatient to sit around until my childrens children are old and grey and have to do it themselves - and that is how I feel it will end up if sinn fein keeps on course.
mickyk200
12-13-2007, 09:23 PM
The problem is that anyone who critisizes sinn fein is either threatened, murdered or at the very least made to be discredited through the use of slander and lies. I dont need to prove any of the above - we all know the instances I speak of here.
Ignoring the lack of taste in that comment, may I ask you then why you and 32csm and RSF havn't been murdered or threatened? Ignoring obviously unionists...
Ignoring the lack of taste in that comment, may I ask you then why you and 32csm and RSF havn't been murdered or threatened? Ignoring obviously unionists...
Where have you been hiding the last few years??
kev86
12-13-2007, 09:56 PM
Ignoring the lack of taste in that comment, may I ask you then why you and 32csm and RSF havn't been murdered or threatened? Ignoring obviously unionists...
So you think that members of the RSF and the 32s have never been threatened?
Or attempts at intimidation made ?
Hildy
12-13-2007, 10:34 PM
Ignoring the lack of taste in that comment, may I ask you then why you and 32csm and RSF havn't been murdered or threatened? Ignoring obviously unionists...
Mickyk, yeah where have you been hiding that you havn't noticed the lack of taste before!:icon_lol: She's referring to the Quinn murder.
scarface
12-13-2007, 10:39 PM
Ignoring the lack of taste in that comment, may I ask you then why you and 32csm and RSF havn't been murdered or threatened? Ignoring obviously unionists...
Joe O'Connor was murdered in 2000
My comments arent meant to be tasteful - just truthful. There is no tact in murder and coverup, nor in intimidation, bullyboy tactics and assaults on real republicans.
Hildy
12-14-2007, 01:42 AM
To be a leader you need to know the difference between right and wrong. The right thing to do if anyone has information about any murder or crime should take that information to the PSNI or Gardai. If truth and integrity aren't just words being flung around, then do the right thing. If anyone sincerely wants justice, lets say for example, for Paul Quinn and they have information, they need to take that information to the appropriate authorities. That's what "real republicans" would do!
I took this post off another forum (I redacted the names) and felt it very appropriate for this thread.....if you would like the link, PM me.
It is incumbent on everyone in South Armagh and all along the border to report ALL crimes to the PSNI and Gardai. Whether it is the murderous crime of Paul Quinn or any other crimes associated with living in a border area. These crimes are around diesel and cigarette smuggling cartels, people have to have the faith and support to turn these people in without being labelled touts or collaborators by keyboard warriors. Likewise people who have came through 30 yrs of warfare do not now want to surrender their streets and villages to out of control young hoodlums who feed off anti social behaviour and make peoples lives a misery.
****, no harm to you, but never let the truth stand in the way of a good yarn. The republican movement were not hopping mad about anything happening in South Armagh around the crash of a helicopter or anything else. In fact it was a great year for SF in that area considering the massive endorsement they received at the Assembly elections just a few short months ago. Two candidates elected on the first count and the 3rd shortly afterwards. This despite all and sundry (remember Suzanne Breen) predicting SF would struggle in that area. So by all means make your allegations of this that and the other but don't be surprised when people laugh at you as the facts nail your lies.
It is no surprise that the failures who attached themselves to the ill fated and poorly supported Davy Hyland campaign have now attached themselves to this campaign and at this juncture the Quinns need to look at those who seem to have swapped one political campaign for another.
So just for the record **** go and look who the people actually voted for, go and look at the level of support for SF in that area.
The people of the area want a new beginning and they want the lawlessness, that people like you advocate, stamped out. They don't want to be labelled a tout or collaborator by the likes of you simply because they don't want hoods running the streets. SF went to the electorate on the basis of supporting the PSNI and letting them deal with crime. People like you comprehensively lost the vote, so just get on with it. By your attitude you encourage every single criminal with an agenda to carry on doing what they are doing as some sort of anti British campaign. Wake up and smell the coffee, you advocate a hoods charter and for that you should be ashamed.
A website calling for justice for Paul Quinn has been set up.
It can be found here:
http://www.quinnsupport.com/index.html
Seabird
12-14-2007, 07:41 AM
Hildy,
To be a leader you need to know the difference between right and wrong.
To be a good leader you first need a base knowledge of what a leader is. I agree knowing right from wrong is essential it shows your integrity, the ability to do the right thing even under pressure.
It inflames me when others take pot shots at SF, as they lay playing the victim. No one has the true story on Paul Quinn, yet they run around slandering SF, isn't it so typical! When the McCartney murder took place it was before an election, the papers had a field day bashing SF, same thing occured with the bank robbery. The voters turned out for the election and we all know the outcome, their attempt to discredit SF failed yet again. Each time an election has taken place in the north SF has gained not lost seats. It was very apparent how the people felt this last election when the independants thought they would hinder SF by standing in the elections. Well it backfired. People do not want half cocked, loose cannons running their government. SF has remain commited and steadfast to and for the people throughout the years, they have shown what they are made of and it shows in the polls how the people of the north feel.
scarface brings up Joe, a murder that took place almost 8 years ago, I can bring up threats on SF that occurred last week, yet some want to say SF murders and threatens. Some sit on here posting lies, a futile attempt to deflame ones character, slanderous trash. Yet they say SF attacks through lies?:icon_lol: What a joke
The oldest military stradegy is to divide and conquer your enemy. You say shinners are lapdogs to the crown when in reality yous are. You have played quite well into the enemy's hand. Good job. Before you attempt to sweep SF front porch, trying sweeping yours first and just maybe you'll gain some credibility. And if you truly want to know what the definition of a good leader, look no further than Gerry Adams.
To set the record straight:
I have never slept with Gerry Adams, I never said that I did on any forum, in general or private conversation. That is an outright lie created to throw a wrench at me. I find it to be a true case of deflamation of character, morally degrading and a statement only worthy of the one that made it.
mickyk200
12-14-2007, 10:51 AM
It's a two way street, you're very opinionated on the struggle for a canadan...
RSF and 32CSM both have receieved intimadation and so has SF from each other. Sinn Féin are not some sort of gestapo that elimate their rivals.
Repblicanism is a seris of splits, the smaller of the two groups eventually fades away after some years due to a lack of popularity. The free staters eventually lost what power they had, the stickies faded away as will you. The majority of republicans do not support RSF or the 32CSM, the most popular organization always prevails eventually. In this case it's the provos and SF. The undecided majority are not interested in amred revolution unless it is the last resort in hopless circumstances. In 2007 we have an alternetive to armed rebellion so what the f*ck is the point in lifting a gun to defend a minority movement that hasn't gotten off the ground?!?
broche
12-14-2007, 10:56 AM
the IRA did not fade away after the fianna fail split, they existed all right albeit in a reduced form up until 1969, the official Ira faded away because their leadership decided like psf if you can't beat them join them. since the 32csm and RSF have not decided to give they will not fade away as you put it.
mickyk200
12-14-2007, 11:04 AM
the IRA did not fade away after the fianna fail split, they existed all right albeit in a reduced form up until 1969, the official Ira faded away because their leadership decided like psf if you can't beat them join them. since the 32csm and RSF have not decided to give they will not fade away as you put it.
Ah another diluted fool who thinks sinn fein is some form of loyalism...
The MOD released a statement saying that they couldn't defeated the provos. The provos decommissioned because the struggle had come to a political stalement, and to break the deadlock they ended armed operations. It's not a case of "can't beat 'em join 'em"
I am indeed opinionated. Where I reside should not come into play in this debate, but I see you are playing into anothers analysis of me. That speaks volumes to me about your character.
From the day the 32csm begun its members have been threatened. Do I believe sinn fein members have been threatened over the years by loyalists, security forces and members of criminal gangs and individuals? Yes. Do I believe members of the 32csm have threatened sinn fein? No. We have been trying to engage them in debate for years.
You say you dont see armed struggle being necessary unless its a 'last resort'. Let me ask you this - when is a last resort for you? For many its when Irelands sovereignty hangs in the balance, the brits are stronger than ever and an organization who has previously defended the country now is arm and arm with the brits endorsing a murderous police force, criminalizing our prisoners and there is no end in sight. Are you happy to sit with that for the rest of your natural life or is that not grounds for a last resort?
A majority can change with the blink of an eye my friend. Refer yourself to the events leading up to 1916.
I am not content with that.
Seabird
12-14-2007, 11:15 AM
Micky,
It's a two way street, you're very opinionated on the struggle for a canadan...
RSF and 32CSM both have receieved intimadation and so has SF from each other. Sinn Féin are not some sort of gestapo that elimate their rivals.
Repblicanism is a seris of splits, the smaller of the two groups eventually fades away after some years due to a lack of popularity. The free staters eventually lost what power they had, the stickies faded away as will you. The majority of republicans do not support RSF or the 32CSM, the most popular organization always prevails eventually. In this case it's the provos and SF. The undecided majority are not interested in amred revolution unless it is the last resort in hopless circumstances. In 2007 we have an alternetive to armed rebellion so what the f*ck is the point in lifting a gun to defend a minority movement that hasn't gotten off the ground?!?
Good post!
broche,
The Officials faded away because they could not muster the support needed to carry on! The Provisional IRA knew that it was not time to support a totally political agenda. the majority of the people placed all their faith and support in the RA. I have said this a hundred times on here, for ever armed action there should a a political objective, when they felt it was time to fully follow the political path the guns were put down with a cease fire being called. The majority of the people supported this then and continue to stay steadfast in their support for the RA's decision. SF are the leaders of today that will bring about a UI and people see this, want this and put their faith in this. Their support continues to grow in leaps and bounds. Why hasn't the 32CSM or RSF's?
Vox Populi
12-14-2007, 11:32 AM
The Officials faded away because they could not muster the support needed to carry on! The Provisional IRA knew that it was not time to support a totally political agenda. the majority of the people placed all their faith and support in the RA.
No they didn't. The OIRA declared a ceasefire (in actual fact it was defence and retaliation) in 1972 following a ballot of the 6 County Executive of the Republican Clubs. It had very little to do with no support, places like Derry City and the Lower Falls were Official IRA strongholds. In the absense of public transport in Derry the OIRA operated a 'peoples' bus service'. The OIRA also killed a multitude of British soldiers in 1973.
The manjority of the people didn't place their faith in the Provisionals - all evidence, electoral, academic and otherwise points overwhelmingly in there was little support overall for the armed struggle. The terrorism of the Provisional IRA sickened the majority of people and by the late 80s even sickened many of its supporters.
SF are the leaders of today that will bring about a UI
Have you read the Good Friday Agreement?
mickyk200
12-14-2007, 11:35 AM
I am indeed opinionated. Where I reside should not come into play in this debate, but I see you are playing into anothers analysis of me. That speaks volumes to me about your character.
From the day the 32csm begun its members have been threatened. Do I believe sinn fein members have been threatened over the years by loyalists, security forces and members of criminal gangs and individuals? Yes. Do I believe members of the 32csm have threatened sinn fein? No. We have been trying to engage them in debate for years.
You say you dont see armed struggle being necessary unless its a 'last resort'. Let me ask you this - when is a last resort for you? For many its when Irelands sovereignty hangs in the balance, the brits are stronger than ever and an organization who has previously defended the country now is arm and arm with the brits endorsing a murderous police force, criminalizing our prisoners and there is no end in sight. Are you happy to sit with that for the rest of your natural life or is that not grounds for a last resort?
A majority can change with the blink of an eye my friend. Refer yourself to the events leading up to 1916.
I am not content with that.
32CSM may not have threatened sinn fein members but nor has sinn fein members threatened 32csm members...I belive the threats reside within our military wings.
This is not 1916, it baffles me why some people apply the logic of Peasre nearly 100 years later. The great man that we was and one of the founding fathers our our republicanism and a true son of Ireland. The ideals that he brought to republicanism are yet to be replaced although his meathods outdated. You cannot apply the Bible literally to the modern day, it has to be translated to fit the circumstances. Britian cannot be driven out by force nowadays unless it threatens their own country, that being mainland Britian seriously. When enough politcal pressure is put on Britain then enforced with military action...final nial in the coffin of British impearlism will be hammered in with the but of a gun, but not nearly enough pressure is put on Britian.
The time to strike back against Britian will be when the Stormont governement collapses again...eventually the hearts and minds of both sides will anger and unfortunetly the struggle will commense in a violent nature. I don't think the Troubles are over rather than on hold. As Pearse said "Ireland unfree will never be at peace."
Seabird
12-14-2007, 11:52 AM
Vox,
No they didn't. The OIRA declared a ceasefire (in actual fact it was defence and retaliation) in 1972 following a ballot of the 6 County Executive of the Republican Clubs. It had very little to do with no support, places like Derry City and the Lower Falls were Official IRA strongholds.
I stand on my original post, the wack nor Derry City were strongholds for the officals after the split. They were strong enough in those areas to include Turf Lodge but the Provisionals out numbered them.
In the absense of public transport in Derry the OIRA operated a 'peoples' bus service'. The OIRA also killed a multitude of British soldiers in 1973.
What is your point about the bus???? It only takes one person to drive it! Please give me references on this multitude of soldiers killed by the officals in 73!
The manjority of the people didn't place their faith in the Provisionals - all evidence, electoral, academic and otherwise points overwhelmingly in there was little support overall for the armed struggle. The terrorism of the Provisional IRA sickened the majority of people and by the late 80s even sickened many of its supporters.
How many votes has any of the officals taken in the last 30 years? How did the arm campaign continue for 30 years with little support? Look at your electorate today, is this a show of little or no support? What you are saying makes no sense, without the support of the people the arm campaign would have ended before it truly had begun and SF would be nothing but a memory of days gone by. SF is the largest republican party in the north and this is because of support, yes support of the people!
Vox Populi
12-14-2007, 12:00 PM
I stand on my original post, the wack nor Derry City were strongholds for the officals after the split. They were strong enough in those areas to include Turf Lodge but the Provisionals out numbered them.
Up until when? The fact is that the OIRA did not declare a ceasefire because 'they had no support' but because of the prevailing political conditions.
What is your point about the bus???? It only takes one person to drive it! Please give me references on this multitude of soldiers killed by the officals in 73!
Look it up. The point about the bus is that the Sticks were active, they didn't just "fade away" as is claimed by historical revisionists.
How many votes has any of the officals taken in the last 30 years? How did the arm campaign continue for 30 years with little support? Look at your electorate today, is this a show of little or no support? What you are saying makes no sense, without the support of the people the arm campaign would have ended before it truly had begun and SF would be nothing but a memory of days gone by. SF is the largest republican party in the north and this is because of support, yes support of the people!
Jim Sullivan was a councillor until the late 80s and they've held a few seats. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a debate about wheter the Sticks have support or not, it's about wether there was support for the armed struggle or not - which there wasn't. Where was the Provisionals mandate in the 70s?
Academic research and voting trends show us there was never overwhelming support for armed struggle.
mickyk200
12-14-2007, 02:05 PM
Academic research and voting trends show us there was never overwhelming support for armed struggle.
There has never been complete and total support for any armed rebellion, although you have to admitt there was a hell of a more of alot of support for the the armed struggle in the 70's, 80's and 90's than there is today
robertemmett
12-14-2007, 03:34 PM
There has never been complete and total support for any armed rebellion, although you have to admitt there was a hell of a more of alot of support for the the armed struggle in the 70's, 80's and 90's than there is today
really??
and exactly how did you measure that??
mickyk200
12-14-2007, 03:40 PM
really??
and exactly how did you measure that??
measure wha?
Jesus ...here we go
Seabird
12-14-2007, 04:06 PM
Vox,
Up until when? The fact is that the OIRA did not declare a ceasefire because 'they had no support' but because of the prevailing political conditions.
Up until when what, you are off from the original statement. We aren't on about a ceasefire, you pulled that of a hat. The bottom line still remains in my original statement. The split came because the OIRA wanted to travel a purely political path and many felt this was not feesible to do so at that time thus the split. The OIRA was left with a very minimal support base, this is a fact, you cannot change an apple into an orange.
Look it up. The point about the bus is that the Sticks were active, they didn't just "fade away" as is claimed by historical revisionists.
WTF, you prove yer point, it is not my place to look it up! If they haven't faded away where are they now, still running the bus in Derry?
The fact of the matter is that this isn't a debate about wheter the Sticks have support or not, it's about wether there was support for the armed struggle or not - which there wasn't. Where was the Provisionals mandate in the 70s?
Actually you are wrong again. the debate was whether or not the OIRA faded away, please go back and read!
I stand once again on my original post pertaining to support.
How many votes has any of the officals taken in the last 30 years? How did the arm campaign continue for 30 years with little support? Look at your electorate today, is this a show of little or no support? What you are saying makes no sense, without the support of the people the arm campaign would have ended before it truly had begun and SF would be nothing but a memory of days gone by. SF is the largest republican party in the north and this is because of support, yes support of the people!
You are avoiding the questions, care to answer them to include this one:
Please give me references on this multitude of soldiers killed by the officals in 73!
Academic research and voting trends show us there was never overwhelming support for armed struggle.
Ahh especially in 1981, is this how Sands, Doherty and Carron won their seats? Produce your facts to substantiate your statement about the academic research and voting trends.
Vox Populi
12-14-2007, 04:45 PM
The bottom line still remains in my original statement. The split came because the OIRA wanted to travel a purely political path and many felt this was not feesible to do so at that time thus the split. The OIRA was left with a very minimal support base, this is a fact, you cannot change an apple into an orange.
There wasn't really a "split", many of those who founded the Provisionals had not been members of the IRA for years and had become recently, by August 1969 working in conjunction with the Freestaters for a split.
Do you have any evidence the OIRA were left with a minimal support base? What about the Falls Curfew with the OIRA fought and battled British soldiers or when they fought against the mobs in 1969?
WTF, you prove yer point, it is not my place to look it up! If they haven't faded away where are they now, still running the bus in Derry?
In the 70s, the Officials were very much still active. In the Starry Plough (prior to 1974) the work undertaken by the ORM is documented, if you live in Ireland you can check these issues at the Linenhall Library. There was work undertaken that the Officials let the Provisionals claim, because it was in contradiction to the Dublin leadership.
Load up CAIN, the evidence is there for anyone that wants to see it. The RM didn't loose their balls, that's hardly a reason for calling a ceasefire. People like Goudling, McMillan and others had been members of the RM for years. It's quite ironic that the Provisionals would later adopt the reformist politics of Official Sinn Fein and the Workers Party almost in their interity.
Ahh especially in 1981, is this how Sands, Doherty and Carron won their seats? Produce your facts to substantiate your statement about the academic research and voting trends.
A TD and two MPs is overwhelming support for armed struggle? Out of how many people in the whole of Ireland or even the 6 counties?
Not withstanding that, the H-Block and Armagh Committees included people that weren't Republicans and had a very, very large trade union membership and representation within its ranks. People like Matt Merrigan wouldn't have supported armed struggle nor would many of the others but they supported the prisoners just demands.
I don't need to prove the voting trends, you just did that. The non-existant mandate for armed struggle has always existed.
Concerning academic research, I'd suggest checking out 'Support for the IRA and INLA in a Northern Irish Ghetto' by Jeffery Sluka.
ciaranxavier
12-14-2007, 06:25 PM
SF will rely on itself alone and no other republican organisation. What makes you think that when the Stormont government collapses (which it will eventually) all the shinners will go running to RSF to support?
Balls they will...they'll hit back at the British governemnt like they have for the past 30 odd years
i dont believe so i believe that it will be another division and many will come back to support the RSF again.
ciaranxavier
12-14-2007, 06:26 PM
It will fall by itself...
and I'm not getting any cheques or a merc for standing by sinn fein and I assure you if I was it wouldn't make a difference except I would have s clio =P
The Stormont regime will collapse by its own accord without any bloodshed
there will be bloodshed before and especially after.
Seabird
12-15-2007, 08:51 AM
Vox,
There wasn't really a "split", many of those who founded the Provisionals had not been members of the IRA for years and had become recently, by August 1969 working in conjunction with the Freestaters for a split.
There was most definitely a split, where are you getting your information from?
Do you have any evidence the OIRA were left with a minimal support base? What about the Falls Curfew with the OIRA fought and battled British soldiers or when they fought against the mobs in 1969?
Yes, from ones that were physically there. What about the Falls Curfew, they fought a gun battle and lost most of their arms, what is yer point? As for the mobs, they lost alot of support there BTW the split had not taken place yet!
The OIRA called a ceasefire in 1972 , a few years later they carried the reputation of being involved in crime, especially drug dealing.
Vox, you can go study Cain, Wiki or any other site and it will not give you a number for the percentage that actully supported the campaign. We know without the support of the people there cannot be an effective campaign. It is this support that provides safe houses, hiding spots for fire arms, food, warnings, passing comms, the list is long. Without these people the campaign would have ended quickly. You can laugh at the elections in 1981 but it proved alot and was the actual driving force that moved SF forward. I believe if you actually watch the turn out in support during protest of internment, Hunger Strikers etc the numbers were huge. More offered support than didn't, it wasn't until the early 90ies that the support started to dwindle. People were tired of war and wanted it to end. We all know the outcome of that.
Vox Populi
12-15-2007, 11:06 AM
There was most definitely a split, where are you getting your information from?Joe Cahill, Jimmy Steel and many others had all left the RM in the mid-60s. They were vigilantes recruited by the Freestaters. They were also known to actively target IRA Volunteers in 1969.
You can tell me to study Wikipedia or whatever you want. I've done my research and have compared Cahill's biography to interviews with McMillan, etc and it's very clear there's a big historical revisionism at work. As well as that, myself and other members of this forum are quite close to some of those who remained with the Republican Movement in 1969 when a largely southern based split took place.
Members of the ORM challanged Sinn Fein members on this revisionism at an ex-POW seminar a month ago. 'I ran away' was never painted on the walls, can anyone show us a photograph?
The Scarman Tribunal also depicts quite clearly the wounds inflicted on B-Specials because the IRA were there. The IRA was on top of St. Comgalls, it wasn't the vigilantes like Joe Cahill.
I believe if you actually watch the turn out in support during protest of internment, Hunger Strikers etc the numbers were huge.
But it wasn't support for Sinn Fein. Here is were the arrogance and historical revisionism come into play. The campaigns against interment and the H-Block / Armagh campaigns were broad based and included people who were not Republicans and who would not support the armed struggle.
More offered support than didn't, it wasn't until the early 90ies that the support started to dwindle
Have you ever read 'war news' in the 80s? Two or three operations a week was indicative of the level of support by the late 80s compared to the 70s. The fact is that the majority of people didn't support armed struggle.
There was consent in the early 70s, but not support. Consent as in someone would let you use their house but would not support you.
Seabird
12-15-2007, 11:29 AM
Vox,
I absolutely disagree with, while you and others on this forum maybe friends with ones from the 60ies and 70ies I too have many. I can only tell you what I have been told by many and they disagree with your analogy.
I know there was a huge support base in Ireland during the 70ies and 80ies. Your denial does not make it a fact but an opinion and mine begs to differ with yours. Use your logic, how could a successful armed campaign wage against the brits if the irsh people did not support this. Just please explain to me how????
Vox Populi
12-15-2007, 11:33 AM
Surely if it was a successful armed campaign, then why do we still live under a foreigner occupation?
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 04:59 PM
"how could a successful armed campaign wage against the brits if the irsh people did not support this. Just please explain to me how????"
someone should have told told PH Pearse, and saved us all alot time and lives
Seabird
12-15-2007, 05:52 PM
Tell ya what Vox, you explain to me how it was not and also explain to all the ones that fought that they fought for nothing. In reality or should I say here in the real world the campaign opened the door for negotiations. I believe that SF will lead us into a United Ireland. Sorry if you cannot see it, this will be done because of the tenacity of the IRA. I don't know what world you are locked in but things will fall into place. Rome was not built in a day.
Seabird
12-15-2007, 05:56 PM
RE,
"saved us":icon_lol: Tell me this, did you EVER fight for a free Ireland any place other than a web site? Maybe you should hook up with Lolly!
I think the other posters would appreciate if seabird stopped derailing threads with useless comments. This is getting very old, fast......
As all posters can clearly see at this stage - it is her that constantly aims to throw topics off course.
She couldnt handle the debate with vox and therefore had to use Robertemmetts comment to throw the topic off kilter. Classic move. ;)
Daithí
12-15-2007, 06:20 PM
I think the other posters would appreciate if seabird stopped derailing threads with useless comments. This is getting very old, fast......
As all posters can clearly see at this stage - it is her that constantly aims to throw topics off course.
She couldnt handle the debate with vox and therefore had to use Robertemmetts comment to throw the topic off kilter. Classic move. ;)
Well lets get back on topic then?
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 07:06 PM
well seabird, i dont know you, and hopefully you dont know me,
so why dont you tell me, "what did you do in the Great War, daddy"
??
Seabird
12-15-2007, 07:32 PM
RE,
I am a female so I cannot be a daddy, it was not my actions I questioned but yours. Once again care to anwser the question. . . Did you ever fight during the Troubles?:confused:
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 07:37 PM
and did you, mummy?
Seabird
12-15-2007, 07:39 PM
RE<
Your silence answered my question.
scarface
12-15-2007, 07:45 PM
and did you, mummy?
and so what if he did'nt is he not allowed to have an opinion if he did'nt fight
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 07:47 PM
yes i did loads, there your anwer,
now.
what did you do??
for all i know you are some little 14 y.o girl,
so dont be pulling the whole, "i am an old "warhorse" carry on" on me
or you will be regalling us with your old war stories like granddad did in only fools and horses
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 07:49 PM
so outline for me one of you brave missions againt the forces of the Dark Lord in ireland,
and then i will submit to your worthiness, and proclaim loudly.."I am not worthy, i am not worthy"
Mellows1922
12-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Folks, can we drop the hostility ?
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 07:59 PM
gladly mellows,
seabird questioned my contribution. i was merely returning the question.
FIM-92
12-15-2007, 08:02 PM
Perhaps if we could return to the discussion of Qualities needed for leadership.
I can think of one quality that no one has mentioned thus far - egomania. Its the downfall of every single great leader there has been.
robertemmett
12-15-2007, 09:58 PM
would you care to elaborate Bear??
i would have to argue that Valdmir Lenin wasnt really one prone to believe his own ego, or for that matter trotsky.
whereas the fascist leadrs of hitler and mussolini were huge ego manics
especially musolini, who would sprint pass his troops during military reviews to demonstrate his psychical fitness.
would you care to elaborate Bear??
i would have to argue that Valdmir Lenin wasnt really one prone to believe his own ego, or for that matter trotsky.
whereas the fascist leadrs of hitler and mussolini were huge ego manics
especially musolini, who would sprint pass his troops during military reviews to demonstrate his psychical fitn