SF: rebels won't stop us backing the police

[Hildy]

Sunday Life (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article3294050.ece)
By Brian Rowan
December 30, 2007

Dissident death threats will not change the republican decision to support the PSNI, a Sinn Fein member of one of the District Policing Partnerships has told Sunday Life.

Those partnerships allow the police to engage with local communities across Northern Ireland - and Sinn Fein has been taking up its places.

"The community wants the party to be in there and engaging," one republican source told Sunday Life.

While the issue of the devolution of policing and justice is important at a high political level, the source said it was also crucial that the PSNI gets "the community link right".

"It needs to look at its practice and how it engages with the community. We want to live in a stable and safe environment, and good policing is central to that."

Death threats from dissidents would not change Sinn Fein's policy, he added.

"In fact, in some senses it's making us more resolute in the face of it (the threats)."

One senior police officer said both Sinn Fein and the force "will be judged not on the high-wire stuff, but on what happens on the streets of west Belfast".

Said the senior officer: "Policing is so hugely complex. Sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what policing can actually do.

"A lot of what we have been doing is peacemaking. What you now need to do is the peace building on the ground in terms of relationships." The officer said recent dissident activity - including attacks on police officers and threats to republicans - would not damage the new relationship that is developing.

"People are sick of it (dissident violence). They don't want that agenda."

[Daithí]

Said the senior officer: "Policing is so hugely complex. Sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what policing can actually do.

I echo these sentiments.

[scarface]

Sunday Life (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article3294050.ece)
By Brian Rowan
December 30, 2007

Dissident death threats will not change the republican decision to support the PSNI, a Sinn Fein member of one of the District Policing Partnerships has told Sunday Life.

Those partnerships allow the police to engage with local communities across Northern Ireland - and Sinn Fein has been taking up its places.

"The community wants the party to be in there and engaging," one republican source told Sunday Life.

While the issue of the devolution of policing and justice is important at a high political level, the source said it was also crucial that the PSNI gets "the community link right".

"It needs to look at its practice and how it engages with the community. We want to live in a stable and safe environment, and good policing is central to that."

Death threats from dissidents would not change Sinn Fein's policy, he added.

"In fact, in some senses it's making us more resolute in the face of it (the threats)."

One senior police officer said both Sinn Fein and the force "will be judged not on the high-wire stuff, but on what happens on the streets of west Belfast".

Said the senior officer: "Policing is so hugely complex. Sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what policing can actually do.

"A lot of what we have been doing is peacemaking. What you now need to do is the peace building on the ground in terms of relationships." The officer said recent dissident activity - including attacks on police officers and threats to republicans - would not damage the new relationship that is developing.

"People are sick of it (dissident violence). They don't want that agenda."

such defiance in the face of two plastic guns is admirable

[robertemmett]

why doesnt sf come and name these guys; "irregulars"

[Cael]

Said the senior officer: "Policing is so hugely complex. Sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what policing can actually do.



I imagine the families of hundreds of victims of the death squads run by the Colonial Constabulary know well what "policing can actually do." Not to mention those Irish citizens gunned down directly on Irish streets by these Crown Occupation Forces.

[Mellows1922]

I imagine the families of hundreds of victims of the death squads run by the Colonial Constabulary know well what "policing can actually do." Not to mention those Irish citizens gunned down directly on Irish streets by these Crown Occupation Forces.

Yet the organisation you support has done nothing to prevent such abuses happening.

Why is that I wonder ?

[East Tyrone]

Said the senior officer: "Policing is so hugely complex. Sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what policing can actually do.



I imagine the families of hundreds of victims of the death squads run by the Colonial Constabulary know well what "policing can actually do." Not to mention those Irish citizens gunned down directly on Irish streets by these Crown Occupation Forces.

I know quite a few families who lost loved ones at the hands of the crown forces and their surrogates. They are almost exclusively Sinn Féin supporters. How many votes did RSF get in Tyrone?

[Seabird]

Mellows.

Not only has his organization done nothing, they have been steadfast in criticizing the ones that ARE doing the hard work.

Cael,

It is SF that is trying to break down the PSNI by getting in there and making them stand up for their actions. How is your organization trying to deliver a normal policing service in the 6?

[scarface]

Mellows.

Not only has his organization done nothing, they have been steadfast in criticizing the ones that ARE doing the hard work.

Cael,

It is SF that is trying to break down the PSNI by getting in there and making them stand up for their actions. How is your organization trying to deliver a normal policing service in the 6?

oh yes we should all help the british give their paramilitary police force in a Ireland a facelift

[East Tyrone]

oh yes we should all help the british give their paramilitary police force in a Ireland a facelift

Would a spade be your sugical implement of choice Dr. Scarface?

[Cael]

Would a spade be your sugical implement of choice Dr. Scarface?


You mean like they way your criminal gang butcher young lads in cow barns when they have the courage to stand up to your hired thugs (paid for by the English Crown). PSF are just a sickening crew and a total disgrace to Ireland.

[East Tyrone]

Cowsheds are full of shyte Cael, just like that post.

[Cael]

I know quite a few families who lost loved ones at the hands of the crown forces and their surrogates. They are almost exclusively Sinn Féin supporters. How many votes did RSF get in Tyrone?


I very much doubt if any sane person would accept the assassins of their loved ones as a legitimate police force - no matter how much they are lied to and intimidated by Sir Gerry's private militia.

[Cael]

Cowsheds are full of shyte Cael, just like that post.

If you want to describe your comrades as "shyte", then I wont disagree with you. The only difference is that shyte is normally fairly harmless, but your gang are still as dangerous as a rabid, castrated, old dog with a mouth full of broken teeth.

[East Tyrone]

I very much doubt if any sane person would accept the assassins of their loved ones as a legitimate police force - no matter how much they are lied to and intimidated by Sir Gerry's private militia.

Well Cael, the situation is considerably less warped than your dogmatic, narrow mind would allow you to believe. Brian Keenan addressed that very issue flanked by family members of the Loughgall Martyrs in Cappagh last may. There's a commemorative DVD out, with the families and friends interviewed on it. You should watch it instead of listening to bitter old men spouting shyte.

[East Tyrone]

If you want to describe your comrades as "shyte", then I wont disagree with you. The only difference is that shyte is normally fairly harmless, but your gang are still as dangerous as a rabid, castrated, old dog with a mouth full of broken teeth.

Nobody that I would consider a "comrade" was involved in the murder of Paul Quinn and if I had any information in regard to that horrible crime I would have no hesitation in presenting it to the PSNI.

[robertemmett]

Would a spade be your sugical implement of choice Dr. Scarface?

a paint brush seems to be the implement of choice of psf

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Along with a can of whitewash, RE...

[belfast rep]

Along with a can of whitewash, RE...

a whole post without mentioning the Adams faction, wow

[Irish Republican Patriot]

It's quite an achievement, I know...

[belfast rep]

It's quite an achievement, I know...
:) :icon_lol:

[Cael]

Well Cael, the situation is considerably less warped than your dogmatic, narrow mind would allow you to believe. Brian Keenan addressed that very issue flanked by family members of the Loughgall Martyrs in Cappagh last may. There's a commemorative DVD out, with the families and friends interviewed on it. You should watch it instead of listening to bitter old men spouting shyte.


Its Ok, I dont need to see any of your Soviet style films of victims thanking their executioners for a job well done.

[East Tyrone]

Its Ok, I dont need to see any of your Soviet style films of victims thanking their executioners for a job well done.

Translates as; you wouldn't want to see anything, concerning people who actually lived the struggle, that would challenge your twisted, myopic little viewpoint gained infront of your computer screen.

[Vox Populi]

Its Ok, I dont need to see any of your Soviet style films of victims thanking their executioners for a job well done.As an ardent watcher of Soviet films, which are you referring to?

[East Tyrone]

As an ardent watcher of Soviet films, which are you referring to?
Could be the Warnerski Bros classic; 'who framed Comrade Stalin'.

[Cael]

Translates as; you wouldn't want to see anything, concerning people who actually lived the struggle, that would challenge your twisted, myopic little viewpoint gained infront of your computer screen.


Im always interested to hear from people about their experiances - I just dont want them packaged by a professional NeoSticky spindoctor, who is only abusing these people's suffering to make propaganda films in favor of the enemy occupation forces.

[Cael]

As an ardent watcher of Soviet films, which are you referring to?


Fortunately, the names of the hacks who make films of the type East Tyrone is refering to are rarely remembered.

[East Tyrone]

Im always interested to hear from people about their experiances - I just dont want them packaged by a professional NeoSticky spindoctor, who is only abusing these people's suffering to make propaganda films in favor of the enemy occupation forces.

The Loughgall Commemoration DVD is a locally produced tribute to the Loughgall Martyrs. I was at the 1st screening which was attended by family members and friends of the fallen. It was universally well received and praised. You really are a sad and twisted individual that you would vomit your bile over their memory. Either that or you're well looked after for your efforts. Whatever it is you're not normal, or close to it.

[Cael]

The Loughgall Commemoration DVD is a locally produced tribute to the Loughgall Martyrs. I was at the 1st screening which was attended by family members and friends of the fallen. It was universally well received and praised. You really are a sad and twisted individual that you would vomit your bile over their memory. Either that or you're well looked after for your efforts. Whatever it is you're not normal, or close to it.


Well, Id be surprised if even the NeoStickys could spin a film on the Loughgall Martyrs (who rejected Adams capitiulation to the English Crown) into a film in support of the Colonial Constabulary. But then again, anything is possible when it comes to a gang that has lost all sense of decency and honour.

[East Tyrone]

Whatever, you would know a lot about them I'm sure. You would have done well to have been at the gravesides to hear what their families had to say when we toured their graves last May.

[Cael]

Whatever, you would know a lot about them I'm sure. You would have done well to have been at the gravesides to hear what their families had to say when we toured their graves last May.


Id be very surprised if they were saying: Lets support the murderers of these Irish patriots as legitimate forces in Ireland, lets accept the "law" that these patriots gave their lives opposing as legitimate law.

[East Tyrone]

Id be very surprised if they were saying: Lets support the murderers of these Irish patriots as legitimate forces in Ireland, lets accept the "law" that these patriots gave their lives opposing as legitimate law.
Well Cael, were you to venture out of your mental shrine to futility you might get to hear what the people on the ground are saying. You would have to come up from Dublin to hear them too. But I think you're happier where you are; in your comfortable little mental prison. You are so like a hate-filled Loayalist it's uncanny. I often wonder if you're really some drugged-up Loyalist taking the p*ss.

[RSF-Fianoglach]

ET cael is making a fair point,theres no need for you to make personal attaks on him,grow up.

[belfast rep]

ET cael is making a fair point,theres no need for you to make personal attaks on him,grow up.
after all he is not a 'communist, faggot or immigrant' but a good Irish lad from the oul sod, god bless him, bejesus, bejesus

[Carlos McJackle]

The Loughgall Commemoration DVD is a locally produced tribute to the Loughgall Martyrs. I was at the 1st screening which was attended by family members and friends of the fallen. It was universally well received and praised. You really are a sad and twisted individual that you would vomit your bile over their memory. Either that or you're well looked after for your efforts. Whatever it is you're not normal, or close to it.

what did padraig mckearneys family make of it ?

[Jim]

Originally Posted by East Tyrone
The Loughgall Commemoration DVD is a locally produced tribute to the Loughgall Martyrs. I was at the 1st screening which was attended by family members and friends of the fallen. It was universally well received and praised. You really are a sad and twisted individual that you would vomit your bile over their memory. Either that or you're well looked after for your efforts. Whatever it is you're not normal, or close to it.

what did padraig mckearneys family make of it ?


Or Jim Lynagh's family for that matter.

While we are on the subject of dvds and republicans, the shinners made a dvd of seamus mcilwaine the only people interviewed were shinners which isnt very balanced considering how most of his family and friends view that movement.

[East Tyrone]

what did padraig mckearneys family make of it ?

I didn't presume to ask Mrs. McKearney but I can assure you that she was interviewed on the video, attended the first screening in Galbally and spoke at Pádraig's grave when we toured the graves.

Jim Lynagh's family was the only one of the eight not represented.

[Comrade Ryan]

Well Cael, the situation is considerably less warped than your dogmatic, narrow mind would allow you to believe. Brian Keenan addressed that very issue flanked by family members of the Loughgall Martyrs in Cappagh last may. There's a commemorative DVD out, with the families and friends interviewed on it. You should watch it instead of listening to bitter old men spouting shyte.

Why has the collusion campaign been run into the ground?

[Comrade Ryan]

The Loughgall Commemoration DVD is a locally produced tribute to the Loughgall Martyrs. I was at the 1st screening which was attended by family members and friends of the fallen. It was universally well received and praised. You really are a sad and twisted individual that you would vomit your bile over their memory. Either that or you're well looked after for your efforts. Whatever it is you're not normal, or close to it.

Were all the families of the martyrs there?

I know there is some bad blood and suspicion between some of the families and the Adams coterie.

Even if they were sometimes people will go toany event paying tribute to their loved ones regardless of who is putting it on. Just look at the hunger strikers, often reps from some families will fo to Sf, RSF & IRSM commemorations.

[Comrade Ryan]

I didn't presume to ask Mrs. McKearney but I can assure you that she was interviewed on the video, attended the first screening in Galbally and spoke at Pádraig's grave when we toured the graves.

Jim Lynagh's family was the only one of the eight not represented.

What was Padraig's brothers take on it all then?

So ET you clearly misrepresented this.

First off it was not universally accpeted.

Second, you say the families were there, it should read some of the families were there. Families are complex with different view points. So the McKearney family were not there, his mother was, i'm not sure of her politics or whether she'll go to anything that honours her son, as many familys understandably do, but his brother wasn't there because he totally disagrees with what SF is doing.

[East Tyrone]

Were all the families of the martyrs there?

I know there is some bad blood and suspicion between some of the families and the Adams coterie.

Even if they were sometimes people will go toany event paying tribute to their loved ones regardless of who is putting it on. Just look at the hunger strikers, often reps from some families will fo to Sf, RSF & IRSM commemorations.


What was Padraig's brothers take on it all then?

So ET you clearly misrepresented this.

First off it was not universally accpeted.

Second, you say the families were there, it should read some of the families were there. Families are complex with different view points. So the McKearney family were not there, his mother was, i'm not sure of her politics or whether she'll go to anything that honours her son, as many familys understandably do, but his brother wasn't there because he totally disagrees with what SF is doing.
Representatives of all the Tyrone families (as in parents, siblings and children) participated in the events. As far as I'm aware, Tommy McKearney was present at a talk given in the Moy, as part of the commemoration series of events. The Lynagh family were not represented, as far as I am aware. I have misrepresented nothing.

[Comrade Ryan]

Representatives of all the Tyrone families (as in parents, siblings and children) participated in the events. As far as I'm aware, Tommy McKearney was present at a talk given in the Moy, as part of the commemoration series of events. The Lynagh family were not represented, as far as I am aware. I have misrepresented nothing.

I think you did, although I suspect that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

By stating that the families were present (given the thread title) infers that the families of the martyrs support SF position on policing.

What you actually had is less significant. You had representatives of some families. Not all members of the families would agree for one thing, but when you acknowledge that Tommy was at one talk it proves my point further, even those that are there may not support SF's view on policing, they are there for their loved ones.

You may not have intentionally misrepresented this, I apologise if my post implies you were deceitful, that was not my intention.

But I do think the events and who attended them was portrayed as vastly more significant than it may have been.

[East Tyrone]

I think you did, although I suspect that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

By stating that the families were present (given the thread title) infers that the families of the martyrs support SF position on policing.

What you actually had is less significant. You had representatives of some families. Not all members of the families would agree for one thing, but when you acknowledge that Tommy was at one talk it proves my point further, even those that are there may not support SF's view on policing, they are there for their loved ones.

You may not have intentionally misrepresented this, I apologise if my post implies you were deceitful, that was not my intention.

But I do think the events and who attended them was portrayed as vastly more significant than it may have been.

I can only speak from personal experience of family members that I know, and from speaches delivered by family members at the rally and gravesides, that the majority of the families support Sinn Féin and their current strategy; indeed they would be indicative of the wider Republican community in East Tyrone. I wouldn't read any deceit into your posts Comrade as you have, in my experience, been a reasoned and thoughtfull debater.

[Comrade Ryan]

I can only speak from personal experience of family members that I know, and from speaches delivered by family members at the rally and gravesides, that the majority of the families support Sinn Féin and their current strategy; indeed they would be indicative of the wider Republican community in East Tyrone. I wouldn't read any deceit into your posts Comrade as you have, in my experience, been a reasoned and thoughtfull debater.

Fair enough mate.

[Vox Populi]

COMBAT LIBERALISM

September 7, 1937

We stand for active ideological struggle because it is the weapon for ensuring unity within the Party and the revolutionary organizations in the interest of our fight. Every Communist and revolutionary should take up this weapon.

But liberalism rejects ideological struggle and stands for unprincipled peace, thus giving rise to a decadent, Philistine attitude and bringing about political degeneration in certain units and individuals in the Party and the revolutionary organizations.

Liberalism manifests itself in various ways.

To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.

To indulge in irresponsible criticism in private instead of actively putting forward one's suggestions to the organization. To say nothing to people to their faces but to gossip behind their backs, or to say nothing at a meeting but to gossip afterwards. To show no regard at all for the principles of collective life but to follow one's own inclination. This is a second type.

To let things drift if they do not affect one personally; to say as little as possible while knowing perfectly well what is wrong, to be worldly wise and play safe and seek only to avoid blame. This is a third type.

Not to obey orders but to give pride of place to one's own opinions. To demand special consideration from the organization but to reject its discipline. This is a fourth type.

To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type.

To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.

To be among the masses and fail to conduct propaganda and agitation or speak at meetings or conduct investigations and inquiries among them, and instead to be indifferent to them and show no concern for their well-being, forgetting that one is a Communist and behaving as if one were an ordinary non-Communist. This is a seventh type.

To see someone harming the interests of the masses and yet not feel indignant, or dissuade or stop him or reason with him, but to allow him to continue. This is an eighth type.

To work half-heartedly without a definite plan or direction; to work perfunctorily and muddle along--"So long as one remains a monk, one goes on tolling the bell." This is a ninth type.

To regard oneself as having rendered great service to the revolution, to pride oneself on being a veteran, to disdain minor assignments while being quite unequal to major tasks, to be slipshod in work and slack in study. This is a tenth type.

To be aware of one's own mistakes and yet make no attempt to correct them, taking a liberal attitude towards oneself. This is an eleventh type.

We could name more. But these eleven are the principal types.

They are all manifestations of liberalism.

Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension. It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.

Liberalism stems from petty-bourgeois selfishness, it places personal interests first and the interests of the revolution second, and this gives rise to ideological, political and organizational liberalism.

People who are liberals look upon the principles of Marxism as abstract dogma. They approve of Marxism, but are not prepared to practice it or to practice it in full; they are not prepared to replace their liberalism by Marxism. These people have their Marxism, but they have their liberalism as well--they talk Marxism but practice liberalism; they apply Marxism to others but liberalism to themselves. They keep both kinds of goods in stock and find a use for each. This is how the minds of certain people work.

Liberalism is a manifestation of opportunism and conflicts fundamentally with Marxism. It is negative and objectively has the effect of helping the enemy; that is why the enemy welcomes its preservation in our midst. Such being its nature, there should be no place for it in the ranks of the revolution.

We must use Marxism, which is positive in spirit, to overcome liberalism, which is negative. A Communist should have largeness of mind and he should be staunch and active, looking upon the interests of the revolution as his very life and subordinating his personal interests to those of the revolution; always and everywhere he should adhere to principle and wage a tireless struggle against all incorrect ideas and actions, so as to consolidate the collective life of the Party and strengthen the ties between the Party and the masses; he should be more concerned about the Party and the masses than about any private person, and more concerned about others than about himself. Only thus can he be considered a Communist.

All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.

[Cael]

Well Cael, were you to venture out of your mental shrine to futility you might get to hear what the people on the ground are saying. You would have to come up from Dublin to hear them too. But I think you're happier where you are; in your comfortable little mental prison. You are so like a hate-filled Loayalist it's uncanny. I often wonder if you're really some drugged-up Loyalist taking the p*ss.


You can leave out the amature psychology, its clearly not your thing.

As for your partitionist slur that someone living in Dublin has less right to give his/her loyalty to the Irish Republic and reject all forms of enemy occupation forces in any part of our country than someone in, say, Tyrone has, that really is par for the NeoSticky course. No doubt you would be happy if as few people as possible took notice of your treason.

[East Tyrone]

You can leave out the amature psychology, its clearly not your thing.

As for your partitionist slur that someone living in Dublin has less right to give his/her loyalty to the Irish Republic and reject all forms of enemy occupation forces in any part of our country than someone in, say, Tyrone has, that really is par for the NeoSticky course. No doubt you would be happy if as few people as possible took notice of your treason.

You speak of treason, to a concept of a state that exists only in your deluded little mind with, nary a thought for the upheaval that would be necessary to bring it about. You'd revel in the role of re-education camp guard if given your chance, I'd bet; a regular little Pól Ó Pot. You are a very sad individual.

[Cael]

You speak of treason, to a concept of a state that exists only in your deluded little mind with, nary a thought for the upheaval that would be necessary to bring it about. You'd revel in the role of re-education camp guard if given your chance, I'd bet; a regular little Pól Ó Pot. You are a very sad individual.


Treason to the nation of Ireland. No doubt you think that is just a figment of the imagination too, as it has not been granted existence by your majesty's government. Who needs the DUP when we have Unionist Spin Fein?

[East Tyrone]

Treason to the nation of Ireland. No doubt you think that is just a figment of the imagination too, as it has not been granted existence by your majesty's government. Who needs the DUP when we have Unionist Spin Fein?

Oh, I forgot; everybody's a traitor but you and Ruairi. Do you hold a cabinet position in the rightfull government? Probably the drinks cabinet, judging by your deluded dribbling.

[Cael]

Oh, I forgot; everybody's a traitor but you and Ruairi. Do you hold a cabinet position in the rightfull government? Probably the drinks cabinet, judging by your deluded dribbling.


We werent talking about Uncle Gerry's Cabinet up in Stormont Castle.

[Hildy]

We werent talking about Uncle Gerry's Cabinet up in Stormont Castle.


Well then Cael, why don't ye just go get yer rifle, what is it an AK-47? And muster up the troops and go storm the 'castle' and do it yer way. yeah, go shoot the bastards, those scumball traitors!:icon_lol:

Think that will work, do you? How many troops do you think you can muster up? WHAT ALTERNATIVE do you have? Tell us, cause I'd really like to know the answer to this one. We are NOT traitors because we want the same things! We just want a peaceful way of trying to get soverignty and a UI, that's all!

[mickyk200]

why doesnt sf come and name these guys; "irregulars"
because that would imply you are not diluted

[Cael]

Well then Cael, why don't ye just go get yer rifle, what is it an AK-47? And muster up the troops and go storm the 'castle' and do it yer way. yeah, go shoot the bastards, those scumball traitors!:icon_lol:

Think that will work, do you? How many troops do you think you can muster up? WHAT ALTERNATIVE do you have? Tell us, cause I'd really like to know the answer to this one. We are NOT traitors because we want the same things! We just want a peaceful way of trying to get soverignty and a UI, that's all!


There is something I notice with all you Adams followers: you only see two alternatives. For you its either armed struggle or its absorbtion into English Crown law. You dont seem to see that building the Irish Republic could be done without either - and certainly can never be done out of the latter.

[mickyk200]

There is something I notice with all you Adams followers: you only see two alternatives. For you its either armed struggle or its absorbtion into English Crown law. You dont seem to see that building the Irish Republic could be done without either - and certainly can never be done out of the latter.
Well Cael you tell us...how can we acheive a UI without the use of arms or by political means?
surely this should bridge the divide in republicanism...everyone take a seat while Cael explains how we can resolve 800 years of struggle. Please enlghten me oh wise Cael!

[Hildy]

There is something I notice with all you Adams followers: you only see two alternatives. For you its either armed struggle or its absorbtion into English Crown law. You dont seem to see that building the Irish Republic could be done without either - and certainly can never be done out of the latter.

No that's not true, with "you" people, all I see is bitchin and moanin, and no solution. So there could be 100 different ways, but you still haven't told me one!

[East Tyrone]

Get ready for a crash-course in Lord of the Rings Republicanism.

[Hildy]

Well Cael you tell us...how can we acheive a UI without the use of arms or by political means?
surely this should bridge the divide in republicanism...everyone take a seat while Cael explains how we can resolve 800 years of struggle. Please enlghten me oh wise Cael!

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: Yes please do! We are all "ears"!

[mickyk200]

i'm f*ckin waiting along with every other person living in the north, cael
it would be handy to be done with this constitutional issue by now...

[Cael]

No that's not true, with "you" people, all I see is bitchin and moanin, and no solution. So there could be 100 different ways, but you still haven't told me one!


For example, did Gandhi use armed struggle, or collaborate with the enemy and take money to help administer British misrule? Of course not. You see your real problem is that you have been so indoctorinated with the mantra that there's no alternative but paid collaboration, that its a kind of mortal sin for you against Gerry and Marty to even think outside the British Constitution.

[mickyk200]

For example, did Gandhi use armed struggle, or collaborate with the enemy and take money to help administer British misrule? Of course not..
do you see republicans lying down in the street or not paying their rent?
BALLS THEY WILL!!
we will be the laughing stock of the geo-political stage in 2008 and be homeless.
that was sh*te ...gimme another one.

[Hildy]

For example, did Gandhi use armed struggle, or collaborate with the enemy and take money to help administer British misrule? Of course not. You see your real problem is that you have been so indoctorinated with the mantra that there's no alternative but paid collaboration, that its a kind of mortal sin for you against Gerry and Marty to even think outside the British Constitution.

Gandhi? WTF does Gandhi have to do with it?:confused: You can't even use a good example.....no Cael we are talking about the republican version in the 6, not the Indian version!

Well that was a clever way to say, "I don't have a solution"! Yeah, and just throw in Gerry and Marty to further blame it on them and confuse yer answer more! If that wasn't 'waffling' I don't know what is!:icon_lol:

[East Tyrone]

For example, did Gandhi use armed struggle, or collaborate with the enemy and take money to help administer British misrule? Of course not. You see your real problem is that you have been so indoctorinated with the mantra that there's no alternative but paid collaboration, that its a kind of mortal sin for you against Gerry and Marty to even think outside the British Constitution.

And Ireland today is so like 1940s India, why didn't I think of that. Mind you Gandhi and his descendants were assassinated and his country was partitioned; so I don't think he's the best example. Nice try though; if a little devoid of any actual ideas, strategy, that type of thing.

[Cael]

Gandhi? WTF does Gandhi have to do with it?:confused: You can't even use a good example.....no Cael we are talking about the republican version in the 6, not the Indian version!

Well that was a clever way to say, "I don't have a solution"! Yeah, and just throw in Gerry and Marty to further confuse yer answer! If that wasn't 'waffling' I don't know what is!:icon_lol:



You are not talking about any Republican version. Hired Crown servants are not Irish Republicans.

What does Gandhi have to do with it? A lot. He knew that the Indian people had to create their own future and not attempt to reform the British Constitution into something a bit more Indian. You have to take your own freedom, not wait for foreigners to grant it to you.

[mickyk200]

Your ability to call a lemon and a lime the same thing facsinates me, I'm logging off this is tiring.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

do you see republicans lying down in the street or not paying their rent?
BALLS THEY WILL!!
we will be the laughing stock of the geo-political stage in 2008 and be homeless.
that was sh*te ...gimme another one.


Resistance of SOME kind would no doubt be more honourable than what we have now, with the shameless frolicking of the Adams Faction with their good friends among the "Unionists", the British in general, and whoring themselves out to whichever big businessman comes by.

[Éire32CS]

Sinn fein like to play to the audience on these supposed 'threats'.

[Mellows1922]

You have to take your own freedom, not wait for foreigners to grant it to you.

So take it ?

If you take it, I'll be more than happy to say, fair play, I was wrong, the strategy I favoured didn't work, yours did, all you had to do was take it.

It must be such a nice place where you live Cael, all those gingerbread houses and candyfloss clouds.

[Cael]

So take it ?

If you take it, I'll be more than happy to say, fair play, I was wrong, the strategy I favoured didn't work, yours did, all you had to do was take it.

It must be such a nice place where you live Cael, all those gingerbread houses and candyfloss clouds.


I am taking it. The first place to free is your own mind.

[Mellows1922]

I am taking it. The first place to free is your own mind.

Is there no Brit occupation in your mind ?

[belfast rep]

I am taking it. The first place to free is your own mind.

and are you going to use the Gandhi strategy of achieving liberation through non- military means?

[Cael]

Is there no Brit occupation in your mind ?


Its a matter of seeing the Law of the Republic as my Law and Crown law as an alien usurpation. Adams and Co. have taken the regressive step into Crown law. They operate intellectually within the paradigm of Crown law and Crown order.

[belfast rep]

Its a matter of seeing the Law of the Republic as my Law and Crown law as an alien usurpation. Adams and Co. have taken the regressive step into Crown law. They operate intellectually within the paradigm of Crown law and Crown order.

how do you deal with those who do abide by the laws of the republic?

[Cael]

and are you going to use the Gandhi strategy of achieving liberation through non- military means?


I agree with the Irish people having the Army of the Republic. However, military campaigns usually mean enforcing a kind of military dicipline on the population that often becomes little more than a native version of what the enemy imposes on them. Clearly, this would not be to the benefit of a genuine Revolution and the establishment of a genuine human society.

[belfast rep]

I agree with the Irish people having the Army of the Republic. However, military campaigns usually mean enforcing a kind of military dicipline on the population that often becomes little more than a native version of what the enemy imposes on them. Clearly, this would not be to the benefit of a genuine Revolution and the establishment of a genuine human society.

so there should be a non military revolution, i will support that.

[East Tyrone]

I agree with the Irish people having the Army of the Republic. However, military campaigns usually mean enforcing a kind of military dicipline on the population that often becomes little more than a native version of what the enemy imposes on them. Clearly, this would not be to the benefit of a genuine Revolution and the establishment of a genuine human society.

So you have absolutely no strategy whatsoever; violent or non violent. Unless, perhaps, your strategy is based around the rosary and pilgrimidges to knock.

[Cael]

so there should be a non military revolution, i will support that.


I would think that the IRA, as the Military Body, should protect the gains of the Revolution rather than create them. I would think that the task of IRA Volunteers, as creators of Revolution, is in helping to establish a social structure fit for human beings to live in.

[East Tyrone]

I would think that the IRA, as the Military Body, should protect the gains of the Revolution rather than create them. I would think that the task of IRA Volunteers, as creators of Revolution, is in helping to establish a social structure fit for human beings to live in.

No offense Cael, but that post is meaningless waffle; particularly when taken in context of the most recent CIRA activities.

[Cael]

No offense Cael, but that post is meaningless waffle; particularly when taken in context of the most recent CIRA activities.


Perhaps you will find meaning in it with time.

The British and Free State structures mean the Irish people staying in the dark ages, living in a free market jungle and not a human society. The many are held in place by force and sanction, so that the few are free to profit and exploit.

[East Tyrone]

Perhaps you will find meaning in it with time.

The British and Free State structures mean the Irish people staying in the dark ages, living in a free market jungle and not a human society. The many are held in place by force and sanction, so that the few are free to profit and exploit.

I can agree with much of that sentiment but your strategy is based around some type of national epiphany or Pauline conversion. That won't happen, even if you have all the good will in the world. Do you think the meek are going to inherit the earth some time soon? If you leave the system of governance entirely in the hands of the British, Unionists and cute-hoor, crooks you will get nothing but more of the same.

[Cael]

I can agree with much of that sentiment but your strategy is based around some type of national epiphany or Pauline conversion. That won't happen, even if you have all the good will in the world. Do you think the meek are going to inherit the earth some time soon? If you leave the system of governance entirely in the hands of the British, Unionists and cute-hoor, crooks you will get nothing but more of the same.


You had Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley going off to the US looking for more capitalists to come to the occupied 06. How do you think they could do this without being able to promise them that things will remain the same and that the autonomy of capital is paramount?

I dont equate the formation of new structures, in contradiction to Crown law, as being meek. Nor do I think the idea of a national epiphany, as you call it, to be all that strange. If people see Republicans playing the English game in Stormont Castle, then they, naturally, feel that there is no hope of anything much better (even a basic language act seems beyond the pale). But if Republicans have the courage to build Republican structures, based on the common good and not on the sanctity of private property and the autonomy of capital from democratic intervention, then people can be inspired.

[East Tyrone]

You had Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley going off to the US looking for more capitalists to come to the occupied 06. How do you think they could do this without being able to promise them that things will remain the same and that the autonomy of capital is paramount?

I dont equate the formation of new structures, in contradiction to Crown law, as being meek. Nor do I think the idea of a national epiphany, as you call it, to be all that strange. If people see Republicans playing the English game in Stormont Castle, then they, naturally, feel that there is no hope of anything much better (even a basic language act seems beyond the pale). But if Republicans have the courage to build Republican structures, based on the common good and not on the sanctity of private property and the autonomy of capital from democratic intervention, then people can be inspired.

Cael you rail against those who make an effort and offer only the most vague of suggestions as an alternative. What are these Republican structures of which you speak? Short of a major geo-political and economic paradigm shift there will be no epiphany among the Irish people. It took the atrocities of the black and tans to motivate significant numbers;the last time there was anything remotely like the popular conscience awakening that you would need.
The whole country would have to be destroyed to bring your dreams to fruition; camps, liquidations, the whole lot. How can you not see that?

[Cael]

Cael you rail against those who make an effort and offer only the most vague of suggestions as an alternative. What are these Republican structures of which you speak? Short of a major geo-political and economic paradigm shift there will be no epiphany among the Irish people. It took the atrocities of the black and tans to motivate significant numbers;the last time there was anything remotely like the popular conscience awakening that you would need.
The whole country would have to be destroyed to bring your dreams to fruition; camps, liquidations, the whole lot. How can you not see that?



There is little doubt that the 5% of the population who own 40% of the wealth would not give up their privilage without a fight, and, like in 1922, they could buy a lot of mercenary fire power with that wealth. But are we to stay like dazed rabbits in the glare of this threat?


As for the likelihood of some popular awakening, I tend to agree with Marx that human evolution is working towards socialism. Not the kind of machine for production that he foresaw, but a humanist, spiritual form of socialism. I think that Republicans should work within this paradigm. Working within Crown law only delays the advent of revolution, and leads people to believe that it could never exist, i.e. it strengthens the status quo and makes an alternative seem impossible.

[scarface]

and are you going to use the Gandhi strategy of achieving liberation through non- military means?

Gabdhi didn't achieve liberation the brits left India because they couldn't afford to run India after WW2

[East Tyrone]

There is little doubt that the 5% of the population who own 40% of the wealth would not give up their privilage without a fight, and, like in 1922, they could buy a lot of mercenary fire power with that wealth. But are we to stay like dazed rabbits in the glare of this threat?


As for the likelihood of some popular awakening, I tend to agree with Marx that human evolution is working towards socialism. Not the kind of machine for production that he foresaw, but a humanist, spiritual form of socialism. I think that Republicans should work within this paradigm. Working within Crown law only delays the advent of revolution, and leads people to believe that it could never exist, i.e. it strengthens the status quo and makes an alternative seem impossible.

Humanist spiritualism is a great concept Cael; unfortunately, it's practicality, like Christianity and Socialism, is undermined by it's contrast with human nature. The corruption and greed that are endemic in world society will not be overcome through laissez-faire opposition; the system can only be overthrown from within.

[East Tyrone]

Gabdhi didn't achieve liberation the brits left India because they couldn't afford to run India after WW2

So Cael will have to look elsewhere for the great RSF master-strategy to save mankind?

[belfast rep]

So Cael will have to look elsewhere for the great RSF master-strategy to save mankind?

ww3 prehaps

[scarface]

Humanist spiritualism is a great concept Cael; unfortunately, it's practicality, like Christianity and Socialism, is undermined by it's contrast with human nature. The corruption and greed that are endemic in world society will not be overcome through laissez-faire opposition; the system can only be overthrown from within.

you can't overthrow something that is rotten and corrupt by becoming part of it

[Cael]

So Cael will have to look elsewhere for the great RSF master-strategy to save mankind?


I would say that Gandhi's greatest achievement was the sense of possibility he inspired in the Indian people. It would have been impossible to inspire anything at all from within a British Home Rule assembly.

[Cael]

Humanist spiritualism is a great concept Cael; unfortunately, it's practicality, like Christianity and Socialism, is undermined by it's contrast with human nature. The corruption and greed that are endemic in world society will not be overcome through laissez-faire opposition; the system can only be overthrown from within.


Im not talking about any laissez-faire opposition. Far from it. Opposition can only be achieved by building on the institutions of the Irish Republic, the Law of the Republic and the vision of documents such as the 1916 Proclamation, the Democratic Program of the First Dáil Éireann and Saol Nua. In other words the contradiction must be firmly established between the Law of the Republic and English Crown law. Crown law must be isolated, faced down and destroyed in Ireland by its replacement.

[East Tyrone]

ww3 prehaps
:icon_lol:
you can't overthrow something that is rotten and corrupt by becoming part of it
If you look at the Connollyesque social policies of the Clement Atlee British Labour Party Govt of 1945, you will see great progress in education, social services and health care. This was done within a rotton system and did make some significant effort towards redressing social imbalences. People like Bernadette Devlin-McAlliskey would never have gone to college otherwise.
If you have will and positive momentum you can have positive accomplishments in any circumstances. If your attitude is merely negative and your momentum and involvement non-existant, you will achieve nothing.
I would say that Gandhi's greatest achievement was the sense of possibility he inspired in the Indian people. It would have been impossible to inspire anything at all from within a British Home Rule assembly.

Gandhi had 10s of millions of people at his beckon-call, that lends significant weight to passive resistance.

[Cael]

Humanist spiritualism is a great concept Cael; unfortunately, it's practicality, like Christianity and Socialism, is undermined by it's contrast with human nature. The corruption and greed that are endemic in world society will not be overcome through laissez-faire opposition; the system can only be overthrown from within.

I might also say that people will behave badly in a bad system. You cannot really blame them for that.

[East Tyrone]

Im not talking about any laissez-faire opposition. Far from it. Opposition can only be achieved by building on the institutions of the Irish Republic, the Law of the Republic and the vision of documents such as the 1916 Proclamation, the Democratic Program of the First Dáil Éireann and Saol Nua. In other words the contradiction must be firmly established between the Law of the Republic and English Crown law. Crown law must be isolated, faced down and destroyed in Ireland by its replacement.

But Cael, all that is just paper; the hopes and aspirations of long-dead society. Where are the institutions that you speak of; can they provide health care, deliver a letter, put out a house fire, offer assistance ot the unemployed and education for our children?

[Cael]

:icon_lol:

If you look at the Connollyesque social policies of the Clement Atlee British Labour Party Govt of 1945, you will see great progress in education, social services and health care. This was done within a rotton system and did make some significant effort towards redressing social imbalences. People like Bernadette Devlin-McAlliskey would never have gone to college otherwise.
If you have will and positive momentum you can have positive accomplishments in any circumstances. If your attitude is merely negative and your momentum and involvement non-existant, you will achieve nothing.


Gandhi had 10s of millions of people at his beckon-call, that lends significant weight to passive resistance.


But you saw how easy it was for the Tories to roll back all the concessions that Atlee seemed to have won. In the end the system reverted to form.

There are enough Irish people, dont worry about that. What we lack is people who can see beyond what the vested intrests who misrule them tell them.

[Cael]

But Cael, all that is just paper; the hopes and aspirations of long-dead society. Where are the institutions that you speak of; can they provide health care, deliver a letter, put out a house fire, offer assistance ot the unemployed and education for our children?


More like the hopes and aspirations of a yet-to-be society.


What you are really saying is that you cannot see anything beyond the current status quo? The best you can hope for is to mildly renegotiate the terms of oppression the people labour under?

I would say yes to all the above. We can do all that if we work together, and do it a lot better than the liberal capitalist system.

[East Tyrone]

But you saw how easy it was for the Tories to roll back all the concessions that Atlee seemed to have won. In the end the system reverted to form.

There are enough Irish people, dont worry about that. What we lack is people who can see beyond what the vested intrests who misrule them tell them.

Yeah Cael it took the Tories 40 odd years to roll back all the concessions; it happened during the Thatcher era. That is not the point and it is a rather disingenious form of evasion.

[East Tyrone]

More like the hopes and aspirations of a yet-to-be society.


What you are really saying is that you cannot see anything beyond the current status quo? The best you can hope for is to mildly renegotiate the terms of oppression the people labour under?

I would say yes to all the above. We can do all that if we work together, and do it a lot better than the liberal capitalist system.

Yes Cael, we could do better if we all laboured together. However, human history has proven that such societal cohsion only occurs in the most adverse circumstances. I'd rather work towards a goal incrimentally without dragging my people through hell in the process. Auld DeVelera was raving about "hair shirts for all" and we know how far that got him or the nation.

[Cael]

Yeah Cael it took the Tories 40 odd years to roll back all the concessions; it happened during the Thatcher era. That is not the point and it is a rather disingenious form of evasion.

in terms of human history 40 years is a short time. The point is that Atlee was the aberation in the system, and the system returned to its native form. The system is set up with the autonomy of capital as its most fundamental principal. This is in absolute contradiction to the welfare of the general population.

[Cael]

Yes Cael, we could do better if we all laboured together. However, human history has proven that such societal cohsion only occurs in the most adverse circumstances. I'd rather work towards a goal incrimentally without dragging my people through hell in the process. Auld DeVelera was raving about "hair shirts for all" and we know how far that got him or the nation.


The question is what goal are you and PSF working towards?

[East Tyrone]

The question is what goal are you and PSF working towards?

My personal goal is a United Ireland within a more responsible, equitable world.

[Cael]

My personal goal is a United Ireland within a more responsible, equitable world.

I believe Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny share your goal. But what does more responsible and equitable mean? Does it mean that 1% of the population own 15% of the wealth instead of the current 20%

[East Tyrone]

I believe Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny share your goal. But what does more responsible and equitable mean? Does it mean that 1% of the population own 15% of the wealth instead of the current 20%

My terminology may well be incorrect there Cael; do please excuse me as I was in a hurry at the time. I took equitable to be similar to equality, whereas it may well be more related to equity and capital.
I want to see more responsibility and equality in the treatment of the peoples and resources of our planet. People should not have to live in slavery to facilitate the lifestyles of the more fortunate, among whom we count. The western sense of entitlement and irresponsibilty towards the planet, and our fellow man, is the greatest source of injustice in the world. It is what allows for the passive acceptance of corporate imperialism, genocide in Africa and a global erosion of civil liberties.

[Caoimhain]

Yet the organisation you support has done nothing to prevent such abuses happening.

Why is that I wonder ?

Why should any organisation have to 'prevent such abuses' happening? If the British Government were defeated we wouldn't need to deal with this abuse from paid scumbags.

You support the police, you concede that the police are involved in 'abuses' and yet you still support them over fighting for the freedom which we are entitled to?

Why is THAT I wonder?

You always have an answer Mellows but it's not nesecarily a valid one.

[mickyk200]

Could someone explain to me how this forwards the "dissidents" own cause?