Attacks on West Belfast visitors [Archive] - The Irish Republican Forum

JPL

01-01-2008, 12:32 PM

how do you propose this is dealt with effectively?

Community involvement. Political parties in the area should be keeping their ear to the ground on such issues. Anti-social residents should be evicted if they don't comply with normal behaviour. Typically a warning should be issued, but after that - an immediate eviction.

Get them out of the community - Let them know that they are not welcome and their actions aren't welcome.

Police/Gardai also play a vital role in curbing anti-social behaviour. There are many situations that can be avoided, but they need to fit the boots that they wear.

For example - last Halloween, we voiced heavily to stop a bonfire in a local housing estate. The bonfire for years has been a scene of fighting and the damage leftover afterwards takes weeks to clean up. We asked the local residents if they wanted the bonfire to go ahead and the majority of them didn't.

We got in contact with the Gardai but curb the obvious violence that would ensue after our attempts of banning the bonfire failed.. They sent 1 car down to the bonfire which had about 150 youths surrounding it. One guy at the bonfire got beatup badly that night and stabbed. It all could of been avoided if the authorities did what was asked of them.

That's just one scenario - but people have to be active in the community and policing needs to be done right in the most needed places.

manus1916

01-01-2008, 12:56 PM

And I suppose this is all Sinn Féin's fault?

now east tyrone your jumpin to conclusions was just pointing out that they are not 'off the streets' as you put it

Hildy

01-01-2008, 12:59 PM

Community involvement. Political parties in the area should be keeping their ear to the ground on such issues. Anti-social residents should be evicted if they don't comply with normal behaviour. Typically a warning should be issued, but after that - an immediate eviction.

Get them out of the community - Let them know that they are not welcome and their actions aren't welcome.

Police/Gardai also play a vital role in curbing anti-social behaviour. There are many situations that can be avoided, but they need to fit the boots that they wear.

For example - last Halloween, we voiced heavily to stop a bonfire in a local housing estate. The bonfire for years has been a scene of fighting and the damage leftover afterwards takes weeks to clean up. We asked the local residents if they wanted the bonfire to go ahead and the majority of them didn't.

We got in contact with the Gardai but curb the obvious violence that would ensue after our attempts of banning the bonfire failed.. They sent 1 car down to the bonfire which had about 150 youths surrounding it. One guy at the bonfire got beatup badly that night and stabbed. It all could of been avoided if the authorities did what was asked of them.

That's just one scenario - but people have to be active in the community and policing needs to be done right in the most needed places.

Well said JPL, well said!

East Tyrone

01-01-2008, 01:00 PM

now east tyrone your jumpin to conclusions was just pointing out that they are not 'off the streets' as you put it

No doubt you will be supporting Sinn Féin's efforts to secure devolution of policing and justice this May, in accordance with the St Andrew's Agreement. This will provide a more effective means of addressing your concerns at the local level.

manus1916

01-01-2008, 01:03 PM

manus1916

01-01-2008, 01:10 PM

Police/Gardai also play a vital role in curbing anti-social behaviour.

don't agree hear though the cop's have always used these things against our communities be it through letting the scum out after turning tout on local republicans or just letting their activities go unchallenged to bring a community on it's knees crawling asking for support. while policing all over the world are bound to tackle these things in the six counties at least they tactically choose not to, in my opinion.

manus1916

01-01-2008, 01:12 PM

No doubt you will be supporting Sinn Féin's efforts to secure devolution of policing and justice this May, in accordance with the St Andrew's Agreement. This will provide a more effective means of addressing your concerns at the local level.

why should i and what difference do you forsee this making?

JPL

01-01-2008, 01:19 PM

don't agree hear though the cop's have always used these things against our communities be it through letting the scum out after turning tout on local republicans or just letting their activities go unchallenged to bring a community on it's knees crawling asking for support. while policing all over the world are bound to tackle these things in the six counties at least they tactically choose not to, in my opinion.

Which is why the need to play a vital role in it. I think I should rephase what I said. What I meant was, they are a very important part of the process and need to do more - both north and south.. as evident by my story.

East Tyrone

01-01-2008, 01:20 PM

REAL republican

01-01-2008, 01:51 PM

post edited by JPL.

No personal attacks will be tolerated.

Cael

01-02-2008, 05:14 PM

Just like the NeoStickys to try and spin a relatively minor incident like this into propaganda for accepting the enemy occupation forces. Masky is just a Crown puppet.

manus1916

01-04-2008, 09:39 AM

Local politicians with devolved power over policing and justice will be best able to address local issues. They live in the affected areas and will have much better understanding of the issues and, therefore, can make decisions based on highly-relevant experience.

how do you feel about the amendment removing any powers over intelligence from the policing and justice powers if devolved

East Tyrone

01-04-2008, 10:44 AM

Just like the NeoStickys to try and spin a relatively minor incident like this into propaganda for accepting the enemy occupation forces. Masky is just a Crown puppet.

What a bitter, hate-filled individual you are Cael. You are devoid of reason or tolerance for anything contrary to your fundamentalist agenda. You are the exact equivalent of the Loyalist thugs who threw urine on school girls at Holy Cross.
how do you feel about the amendment removing any powers over intelligence from the policing and justice powers if devolved
How do you think I feel, obviously I don't like it. The malign influence of British intelligence is something we should all be conscious of and those that operate in the shadows only provide them with more operational cover.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 10:39 AM

Local politicians with devolved power over policing and justice will be best able to address local issues. They live in the affected areas and will have much better understanding of the issues and, therefore, can make decisions based on highly-relevant experience.

So SF is now going to buck the trend of western policing with a miserly three seats on the policing board, which is routinely ignored anyways.

Can't wait to see the changes...

The Countess

01-05-2008, 11:37 AM

how do you propose this is dealt with effectively?

are the current mechanisms working? for example cop's, courts, and crj.

has sinn fein's almost year long support of policing and the justice system improved the quality of life in working class areas in relation to anti-social behaviour?

...... for example has the R.U.C/P.S.N.I clean up of crime improved or has the justice system handed down heavier sentences to act as a deterent?

kneecap them! I'd do it (for a cigarette)

East Tyrone

01-05-2008, 01:17 PM

So SF is now going to buck the trend of western policing with a miserly three seats on the policing board, which is routinely ignored anyways.

Can't wait to see the changes...

There's a wee bit more to it than that Comrade; changing attitudes within the Nationalist community will result in more effective policing. Nothing is going to happen overnight, but little of worth ever does.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 01:48 PM

There's a wee bit more to it than that Comrade; changing attitudes within the Nationalist community will result in more effective policing. Nothing is going to happen overnight, but little of worth ever does.

Have SF learned any lessons from Western policing and its attitudes towards working class people? Surely this is fairly elementary stuff?

The cops across the globe view the working class communities of the world as the enemy, because the social conditions usually mean more crime. Cops are there to stamp on rime not deal with the causes.

Thats not taking into consideration the consitutional issues here. Double jeopardy.

What i'd like to hear is some facts from SF about how this will be changed, if all anyone has is aspirational platitudes and fluffy 'what may be's' please save your breath i've heard it all before.

Maybe SF would do better than to use the example of SA as its ridden with crime, the working class and poor areas have been left behind, and the cops are busy battering striking workers off the streets. All this whilst Robert McBride of the ANC, now a police commander, has barbeques with the people who were once his enemies.

I can't wait, its such a bright future to look forward to.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 01:49 PM

There's a wee bit more to it than that Comrade; changing attitudes within the Nationalist community will result in more effective policing. Nothing is going to happen overnight, but little of worth ever does.

Oh so its the 'nationalist' community that needs their attitudes changed, funny that SF used to say it was the RUC that needed to change their attitudes for better policing.

East Tyrone

01-05-2008, 04:01 PM

Oh so its the 'nationalist' community that needs their attitudes changed, funny that SF used to say it was the RUC that needed to change their attitudes for better policing.

My initial comment may well be to blame for the harshness of your interpretation, Comrade. When I spoke of "changing attitudes within the Nationalist community" I meant attitudes in regard to accepting the need for policing, reporting crime to the police, cooperating with police investigations; stuff like that. Ofcourse the PSNI has work to do to gain confidence and respect from within the Nationalist community and the best way that they could do that would be to go about their job in an acceptable, impartial and professional manner. Sinn Féin has done the ground work to offer the PSNI the opportunity to prove themselves to the Nationalist community; it is up to the community to utilise the police and force them to do their job. If the community fail to do this we are left with a catch 22 situation.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 04:12 PM

My initial comment may well be to blame for the harshness of your interpretation, Comrade. .

Granted.

When I spoke of "changing attitudes within the Nationalist community" I meant attitudes in regard to accepting the need for policing, reporting crime to the police, cooperating with police investigations; stuff like that. .

Firstly, we have always accepted the need for polcing, indeed, republicans did their best to fulifill this role, which in my experience, they did better than what I experience currently.

And various crimes were reported, always. Burglaries, car thefts, rapes,etc were reported to the RUC consistently. There is no change.

Although, republicans did draw the line at informing on other republicans whether you supported their org or not. In fact, informing was not acceptable at any time regardless as to whether the would be informer was a republican, believed in armed struggle, etc. To say to republicans 'I infomed because I do not think you are mandated to do what you are doing' was not an accepted excuse.

Ofcourse the PSNI has work to do to gain confidence and respect from within the Nationalist community and the best way that they could do that would be to go about their job in an acceptable, impartial and professional manner. Sinn Féin has done the ground work to offer the PSNI the opportunity to prove themselves to the Nationalist community; it is up to the community to utilise the police and force them to do their job. If the community fail to do this we are left with a catch 22 situation.

The PSNI cannot win my respect because I do not believe that Irish Republicans can legitimise illegitimate forces, be the PSNI or the Garda. People may have to use them, due to no alternative, but accept them? No.

How can the PSNI deal with political issues in an impartial manner? They are not impartial, they are defenders of the state and the status quo.

As to your last point, what if the PSNI fail to live up to their side of the bargain? Then what? What will SF do? What can they do?

You can answer these last questions if you wish, but they are really rhetorical, I already know the answer.

East Tyrone

01-05-2008, 05:28 PM

Firstly, we have always accepted the need for polcing, indeed, republicans did their best to fulifill this role, which in my experience, they did better than what I experience currently.
And various crimes were reported, always. Burglaries, car thefts, rapes,etc were reported to the RUC consistently. There is no change.
If you are referring to the so-called 'community justice' routinely meted out during the troubles then I would beg to differ. Two wrongs don't make a right and I could quote you no shortage of examples of individuals who were scarcely deterred by warnings, expulsions, beatings and kneecappings. Infact, there are two individuals in Dungannon who were subject to every level of 'community justice' to include the loss of limbs and they still persisted in anti-social activity and crime. The spectre of a kneecapping may have served to deter some from crime or anti-social activity; but is that the way you want to live, in a community policed by fear?

Although, republicans did draw the line at informing on other republicans whether you supported their org or not. In fact, informing was not acceptable at any time regardless as to whether the would be informer was a republican, believed in armed struggle, etc. To say to republicans 'I infomed because I do not think you are mandated to do what you are doing' was not an accepted excuse.
It comes down to a clear-cut ideological question here. Do you believe that self-appointed minority groups have the right to engage in acts of violence, within the community, without the consent of the community and against the express wishes of the community? Is their right to do so greater than the right of the community to live in an atmosphere free of violence and terror; or indeed the right of the community to oppose them?

The PSNI cannot win my respect because I do not believe that Irish Republicans can legitimise illegitimate forces, be the PSNI or the Garda. People may have to use them, due to no alternative, but accept them? No.

That's all well and good but these "illegitimate forces" exist and must be dealt with on a day to day basis until such times as an All Ireland police force exists. Your argument is in danger of straying into metaphysics here.

How can the PSNI deal with political issues in an impartial manner? They are not impartial, they are defenders of the state and the status quo.
There is a simple solution to this issue; if there were no more pointless, wastefull, counter-productive and unwanted acts of violence, and if those now considering them would cease and desist, the conundrum would no longer exist. The police would be concerned with community policing, nothing more and the British intelligence apparatus would have a more difficult task of moulding public opinion.

As to your last point, what if the PSNI fail to live up to their side of the bargain? Then what? What will SF do? What can they do?
About as much as any democratically elected public representatives in any other European administration. With devolution they should have more oversight to lobby for greater efficiancy and accountability in much the same way as their counterparts in any other administration.

Hildy

01-05-2008, 05:36 PM

Oh so its the 'nationalist' community that needs their attitudes changed, funny that SF used to say it was the RUC that needed to change their attitudes for better policing.

Why is that funny Comrade Ryan, that's what SF is saying now about the PSNI!:p

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 05:46 PM

Why is that funny Comrade Ryan, that's what SF is saying now about the PSNI!:p

That was in repsonse to ET saying that what was needed was the 'nationalist' community to change its attitutde towards policing.

I though it was ironic seeing as that was SF's line about the PSNI, but it was cleared up as a misunderstanding (and me being a bit awkward if the truth be told) later.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 05:59 PM

If you are referring to the so-called 'community justice' routinely meted out during the troubles then I would beg to differ. Two wrongs don't make a right and I could quote you no shortage of examples of individuals who were scarcely deterred by warnings, expulsions, beatings and kneecappings. Infact, there are two individuals in Dungannon who were subject to every level of 'community justice' to include the loss of limbs and they still persisted in anti-social activity and crime. The spectre of a kneecapping may have served to deter some from crime or anti-social activity; but is that the way you want to live, in a community policed by fear?.

I'd rather live in a community where the guilty were policed by fear than where the innocent lived in fear.

I agree though sometimes two wrongs don't make a right, often just one wrong will suffice.

There will always be people who do not listen to warnings, even if its the sound of a limb being removed, for everything else theres exile.

It comes down to a clear-cut ideological question here. Do you believe that self-appointed minority groups have the right to engage in acts of violence, within the community, without the consent of the community and against the express wishes of the community? Is their right to do so greater than the right of the community to live in an atmosphere free of violence and terror; or indeed the right of the community to oppose them?

Its not an ideological question as you would have it.

Do you believe that self-appointed groups have the right to engage in acts of violence without the consent of the whole community? If so I guess you wouldn't have supported SF when they were allied to the IRA who held no referendums on their proposed activities, yet did what they liked. Were people ideologically opposed to them, or even just opposed to violence in their streets, within their rights to inform on them? Was this the position of SF or the IRA?

Further still, did people have the right, in your eyes, to inform on those who imposed on them by taking over over their houses, etc?

In an area, which would have had a republican minority, were the peopel there more entitled to inform than in areas with a republican majority?

This may seem like semantics or pedantic argument, but thats what happens whe you attempt to build an argument on sand.

[/QUOTE]That's all well and good but these "illegitimate forces" exist and must be dealt with on a day to day basis until such times as an All Ireland police force exists. Your argument is in danger of straying into metaphysics here.[/QUOTE]

If you re-read my post I think you'll find that I said people had to use the RUC as sometimes there was no alternative, thats quite different than supporting them or giving them legitimacy.

[/QUOTE]There is a simple solution to this issue; if there were no more pointless, wastefull, counter-productive and unwanted acts of violence, and if those now considering them would cease and desist, the conundrum would no longer exist. The police would be concerned with community policing, nothing more and the British intelligence apparatus would have a more difficult task of moulding public opinion..[/QUOTE]

Really its that simple? So the brits and the cops are only interested in armed groups? So the english cops and MI5 didn't actually attack the miners at the behest of the british government? The brits weren't really spying on SF afterall? And there will be no MI5 or PSNI interest in unarmed revolutionary groups or parties. Really Et, come on now.

About as much as any democratically elected public representatives in any other European administration. With devolution they should have more oversight to lobby for greater efficiancy and accountability in much the same way as their counterparts in any other administration.

Just what I thought...f*ck all.

East Tyrone

01-05-2008, 06:27 PM

I'd rather live in a community where the guilty were policed by fear than where the innocent lived in fear.
I agree though sometimes two wrongs don't make a right, often just one wrong will suffice.
There will always be people who do not listen to warnings, even if its the sound of a limb being removed, for everything else theres exile.
That sounds a lot like totalitarianism.

Its not an ideological question as you would have it.

Do you believe that self-appointed groups have the right to engage in acts of violence without the consent of the whole community? If so I guess you wouldn't have supported SF when they were allied to the IRA who held no referendums on their proposed activities, yet did what they liked. Were people ideologically opposed to them, or even just opposed to violence in their streets, within their rights to inform on them? Was this the position of SF or the IRA?
The IRA are no longer involved in violence nor does Sinn Féin advocate or support violence; your comparison is without merit as it has no bearing on the present-day situation. It would be like George Bush answering a German politician's criticism of the Iraq invasion with remarks about invading Poland.

Further still, did people have the right, in your eyes, to inform on those who imposed on them by taking over over their houses, etc?
In an area, which would have had a republican minority, were the peopel there more entitled to inform than in areas with a republican majority?
This may seem like semantics or pedantic argument, but thats what happens whe you attempt to build an argument on sand.
Again this is retrocentric postulation and it isn't useful. There is no longer a need ore desire for an armed campaign and persistance contrary to these facts can only prove jeopardicial to the community and the overall goal of reunification.

If you re-read my post I think you'll find that I said people had to use the RUC as sometimes there was no alternative, thats quite different than supporting them or giving them legitimacy.
You are caught up on semantics and symbology here; I'm surprised at you as I thought you were above that.

Really its that simple? So the brits and the cops are only interested in armed groups? So the english cops and MI5 didn't actually attack the miners at the behest of the british government? The brits weren't really spying on SF afterall? And there will be no MI5 or PSNI interest in unarmed revolutionary groups or parties. Really Et, come on now.
Ofcourse they are interested in more than armed groups. I have no doubt that they have penetrated any organisation of influence in Irish society that can be used to further their goals; which go further than the National question. Modern intelligence agencies are interested in all facets of host societies from commerce to social programming through the media. The armed groupings offer them ample ammunition for their salaried social programmers in the media. Anybody could be compromised; from the new Cardinal to Ruiari O Brádaigh to Julian Simmons, this is nothing new as it has been this way for centuries. They only way to defeat it is in the open where people who are free of fear from compromise can represent their community. It is up to the community to choose those it would be represented by.

Comrade Ryan

01-05-2008, 06:46 PM

That sounds a lot like totalitarianism..

The IRA was hooked on totalitarianism then was it?

The IRA are no longer involved in violence nor does Sinn Féin advocate or support violence; your comparison is without merit as it has no bearing on the present-day situation. It would be like George Bush answering a German politician's criticism of the Iraq invasion with remarks about invading Poland...

Yeah it would be like that only its comparing one IRA conducting an armed campaign with no mandate with another IRA with no mandate.

So when the OIRA renounced violence they would have been within their rights to ask peopel to inform on the PIRA as the OIRA's conflict was over. Funny we never seen it like that...

Again this is retrocentric postulation and it isn't useful. There is no longer a need ore desire for an armed campaign and persistance contrary to these facts can only prove jeopardicial to the community and the overall goal of reunification

Well there were other republicans that told the PIRA that too. They didn't agree.

The PIRA has told that to other republicans and they don't agree.

Is the PIRA the ultimate arbiter on what is and what is not legitimate?

Any we used to criticise RSF for that.

You are caught up on semantics and symbology here; I'm surprised at you as I thought you were above that.

Its better for you to explain rather than just toss ambiguous phrases around.

Ofcourse they are interested in more than armed groups. I have no doubt that they have penetrated any organisation of influence in Irish society that can be used to further their goals; which go further than the National question. Modern intelligence agencies are interested in all facets of host societies from commerce to social programming through the media. The armed groupings offer them ample ammunition for their salaried social programmers in the media. Anybody could be compromised; from the new Cardinal to Ruiari O Brádaigh to Julian Simmons, this is nothing new as it has been this way for centuries. They only way to defeat it is in the open where people who are free of fear from compromise can represent their community. It is up to the community to choose those it would be represented by.

It is the communities choice, yes, but when republicans were not in a strong position within any community we conveniently ignored that.

I'm glad you have explained this as it dispells your earlier assertion that if the armed groups would stop messing about the cops would just be interested in community policing. Clearly you have blown that out of the water so to speak.

BTW, I have asked you thi before, but I can't remember if you answered, were you a member or supporter of the movement when the IRA campaign was in progress?

Trying to get a read on where you stood on armed conflict as you seem quite opposed to it generally.

East Tyrone

01-05-2008, 10:51 PM

The IRA was hooked on totalitarianism then was it?
Your assertion sounded like totalitarianism, the IRA were in a difficult situation and did the best that they could. Former IRA members, whom I have spoken to in recent times, have stated that they believe such tactics were counterproductive.

Yeah it would be like that only its comparing one IRA conducting an armed campaign with no mandate with another IRA with no mandate.
So when the OIRA renounced violence they would have been within their rights to ask peopel to inform on the PIRA as the OIRA's conflict was over. Funny we never seen it like that...
Well there were other republicans that told the PIRA that too. They didn't agree.
You're still living in the past here, there has been a political paradigm shift since then so your analogy is redundant.

It is the communities choice, yes, but when republicans were not in a strong position within any community we conveniently ignored that.
Do you not think it is a good thing that Republicans are now behaving in a more responsibile manner in regard to the community?

I'm glad you have explained this as it dispells your earlier assertion that if the armed groups would stop messing about the cops would just be interested in community policing. Clearly you have blown that out of the water so to speak.
BTW, I have asked you thi before, but I can't remember if you answered, were you a member or supporter of the movement when the IRA campaign was in progress?
Trying to get a read on where you stood on armed conflict as you seem quite opposed to it generally.
I've been a Republican all my life, I was doing election work while still at grammar school and was politically active in college, before going to live in the states for several years. I was very much an IRA supporter, though never a member, and I still support their stance today.

Comrade Ryan

01-06-2008, 01:31 PM

Your assertion sounded like totalitarianism, the IRA were in a difficult situation and did the best that they could. Former IRA members, whom I have spoken to in recent times, have stated that they believe such tactics were counterproductive..

I know you're very good at defense maneouvers ET but that wasn't the question. I stated what was pretty much IRA policy in these areas for years, much to the delight of most locals, and you said it was totalitarianism.

When I asked was the IRA committed to totalitatarinism you diverted talking of difficult times etc.

So did difficult times drive the IRA to totalitarianism?

By the way, don't what life is like where you are, but be assured we are still living in very difficult times here, just with less recourse thats all, life on the ground has not improved one iota.

You're still living in the past here, there has been a political paradigm shift since then so your analogy is redundant...

Its not redundant its just very inconvenient for SF supportes to answer - there is a difference. Somehow SF supporters have tried to pretend that trends in history etc are redundant - but they aren't, no matter how hard you try and make it seem so.

What about Sunningdale? Seeing as it was pretty much what was on offer through the GFA, would the SDLP, Workers Party, etc, have been justified to call on people to inform on PIRA activities and personnel seeing as the political landscape had changed and there was a real political alterntive on offer, ie. power sharing executive with cross border bodies (sound familiar).

So if people in the 'nationalist' community viewed that as a credible agreement would they have been within their rights to inform on IRA personnel, and would this informing and its subsequent justifying arguments have been accepted as 'par for the course' by the IRA?

Do you not think it is a good thing that Republicans are now behaving in a more responsibile manner in regard to the community?

I don't share you world view ET so no I don't agree with this statement.

I feel that to you and the bulk of SF at this time, reformism equals responsible behaviour. It might for a liberal but not a revolutionary.

This is were our paths diverge. I don't think SF is, any longer, a revolutionary party. I think they are reformists - pure and simple.

Now if they are happy with this, and were honest about where they are, I'd disagree but i'd respect their option to do as they chose.

My problem with them is that they are still masquerading as revolutionaries when they clearly aren't. Everything they prioritise now demonstrates that clearly.

Why can't they just be honest about where they are and what they are attempting to do?

I've been a Republican all my life, I was doing election work while still at grammar school and was politically active in college, before going to live in the states for several years. I was very much an IRA supporter, though never a member, and I still support their stance today.

Fair enough mate, was just asking as some of your commentary regarding armed republicanism PIRA included led me to believe that you were oppsed to armed struggle and violence as a point of principle.

East Tyrone

01-06-2008, 01:58 PM

I know you're very good at defense maneouvers ET but that wasn't the question. I stated what was pretty much IRA policy in these areas for years, much to the delight of most locals, and you said it was totalitarianism.
When I asked was the IRA committed to totalitatarinism you diverted talking of difficult times etc.
So did difficult times drive the IRA to totalitarianism?
No the IRA were not totalitarian, they provided the best support they could in response to community pressure in adverse circumstances. I introduced the concept of totallitarianism in response to a post where it seemed as if you preferred a community ruled by fear as opposed to conventional policing and justice.

By the way, don't what life is like where you are, but be assured we are still living in very difficult times here, just with less recourse thats all, life on the ground has not improved one iota.
I assume you live in the city, I'm in the country here so we're talking completely different environments.

Its not redundant its just very inconvenient for SF supportes to answer - there is a difference. Somehow SF supporters have tried to pretend that trends in history etc are redundant - but they aren't, no matter how hard you try and make it seem so.
What about Sunningdale? Seeing as it was pretty much what was on offer through the GFA, would the SDLP, Workers Party, etc, have been justified to call on people to inform on PIRA activities and personnel seeing as the political landscape had changed and there was a real political alterntive on offer, ie. power sharing executive with cross border bodies (sound familiar).
So if people in the 'nationalist' community viewed that as a credible agreement would they have been within their rights to inform on IRA personnel, and would this informing and its subsequent justifying arguments have been accepted as 'par for the course' by the IRA?

It's interesting that people keep throwing up Sunningdale when the leadership of the Republican Movement of that time was very different to that at the time of the GFA. Fundamentalists like Ó Brádaigh still had a very significant influence on policy and doctrine; they were still wedded to Éire nua after all. It took years of hard lessons to develop the political pragmatism and realism that made the GFA possible. Given the dramatically differant conditions and political landscape, I'm sorry but I still can't accept that as a valid analogy.

I don't share you world view ET so no I don't agree with this statement.

I haven't expounded much of my world view on here. Don't be so quick to judge. I can't see, however, how my world view impacts whether or not you think it's good thing that Republicans are behaving in a democratically accountable manner, responsive to the wishes of the community. Unless, ofcourse, you really do favour totalitarianism.

I feel that to you and the bulk of SF at this time, reformism equals responsible behaviour. It might for a liberal but not a revolutionary.
Reform also equals progress and improvement.

This is were our paths diverge. I don't think SF is, any longer, a revolutionary party. I think they are reformists - pure and simple.
Now if they are happy with this, and were honest about where they are, I'd disagree but i'd respect their option to do as they chose.
My problem with them is that they are still masquerading as revolutionaries when they clearly aren't. Everything they prioritise now demonstrates that clearly.
Why can't they just be honest about where they are and what they are attempting to do?
I'm more interested in progress than semantics, you would have to address those questions to somebody else.

Fair enough mate, was just asking as some of your commentary regarding armed republicanism PIRA included led me to believe that you were oppsed to armed struggle and violence as a point of principle.
I'm opposed to it on a point of common sense.

Comrade Ryan

01-06-2008, 03:49 PM

No the IRA were not totalitarian, they provided the best support they could in response to community pressure in adverse circumstances. I introduced the concept of totallitarianism in response to a post where it seemed as if you preferred a community ruled by fear as opposed to conventional policing and justice..

So when I relayed how our communites operated with the assistance of the IRa (without naming them) it totalitarianism.

When I name them its not, just honest people doing the best they can for their people - very interesting.

The hypocricsy of your logic is clear.

BTW, I said i'd rather live in a community where the guilty were policed through fear (pretty much like every system in the world) than one where the community lives in fear. I like how you attempted to twist my words to make it fit with your totalitarianism claims.

I assume you live in the city, I'm in the country here so we're talking completely different environments...

you are correct, and the quality of many of our lives has decreased dramatically since the passing of the IRA's 'totalitarianism' ended.

It's interesting that people keep throwing up Sunningdale when the leadership of the Republican Movement of that time was very different to that at the time of the GFA. Fundamentalists like Ó Brádaigh still had a very significant influence on policy and doctrine; they were still wedded to Éire nua after all. It took years of hard lessons to develop the political pragmatism and realism that made the GFA possible. Given the dramatically differant conditions and political landscape, I'm sorry but I still can't accept that as a valid analogy....

That point would be all the more signifcant f it was relevant. Firstly, O'Bradaigh wasn't the only one committed to the IRA's policy at that time, so was the leadership of your party as currently consituted, so this is one you cannot lay solely at the aul lads door.

Secondly, I was referring not to the minds of the IRA or those who supported the republican movement, but to those who didn't, this would be the only relevant angle for me to tackle this from in relation to your argument that people can inform on armed republicans today because they have no mandate to do what they are doing.

Can you answer, if it would have been ok with you for people who did not mandate the PIRA to do as it was doing (which was the majority of 'nationalism' afterall) to inform on the PIRA on the basis that they did not support what they were doing?

Particularly in light of the majority of 'nationalists' supporting partie which opposed the PIRA, its campaign, but were in favour of power sharing arrangments?

I haven't expounded much of my world view on here. Don't be so quick to judge. I can't see, however, how my world view impacts whether or not you think it's good thing that Republicans are behaving in a democratically accountable manner, responsive to the wishes of the community. Unless, ofcourse, you really do favour totalitarianism.....

I would contend that you have indeed expounded your world view, which is one of seeking to reform systems not seeking to over throw them.

This is where me and you differ.

If you think republicans in a Stormont regime attempting to reform the system in the most piecemeal of fashions is preferable to attempting to undermine the system then that is your choice but please state it clearly, away from the veneer of being revolutionary.

Reform also equals progress and improvement.

I'm more interested in progress than semantics, you would have to address those questions to somebody else.

I'm opposed to it on a point of common sense.

You have overlooked how reform equals the death knell of fundamental progress and significant improvement.

All it can acheive, at best, is a slight improvement of a system which is inherently unjust, that is nowhere enough to buy me off i'm afraid.

My knickers have never got wet at the sight of a new 'nationalist' middle class i'm afraid.

If you are opposed to armed struggle and politcal violence on a point of common sense, you must have taken leave of it whilst supporting the IRA's armed struggle, and the IRA must only have acheived this common sense after decades of conflict, and republicans in general must never have possesed your enlightened common sense over a course of hundreds of years.

Bravo you.

East Tyrone

01-06-2008, 09:03 PM

So when I relayed how our communites operated with the assistance of the IRa (without naming them) it totalitarianism.
When I name them its not, just honest people doing the best they can for their people - very interesting.
The hypocricsy of your logic is clear.
BTW, I said i'd rather live in a community where the guilty were policed through fear (pretty much like every system in the world) than one where the community lives in fear. I like how you attempted to twist my words to make it fit with your totalitarianism claims.
You're the one that started picking holes. I don't think that so-called community justice is an effective replacement for conventional policing and justice. It appears that you disagree, can we leave it at that without another unnecessary, historical analysis?

you are correct, and the quality of many of our lives has decreased dramatically since the passing of the IRA's 'totalitarianism' ended.
Well where I live, and in the areas surrounding, the opposite is very much the case.

That point would be all the more signifcant f it was relevant. Firstly, O'Bradaigh wasn't the only one committed to the IRA's policy at that time, so was the leadership of your party as currently consituted, so this is one you cannot lay solely at the aul lads door.
I wasn't laying the blame solely with him, there were others involved. Would you not agree that it is absolutely invalid to throw up the Sunningdale question, in the context of the Republican movement of the GFA era, when most of the senior decision makers of the Sunningdale era were no longer a factor?

Secondly, I was referring not to the minds of the IRA or those who supported the republican movement, but to those who didn't, this would be the only relevant angle for me to tackle this from in relation to your argument that people can inform on armed republicans today because they have no mandate to do what they are doing.
There's a simple answer to the issue; cease and desist.

Can you answer, if it would have been ok with you for people who did not mandate the PIRA to do as it was doing (which was the majority of 'nationalism' afterall) to inform on the PIRA on the basis that they did not support what they were doing?
Particularly in light of the majority of 'nationalists' supporting partie which opposed the PIRA, its campaign, but were in favour of power sharing arrangments?
Totally differant scenario, the IRA began a popular campaign at the request of large sections of the community. This legitimised the campaign and young men and women routinely risked their lives in action. The IRA ended the campaign and this situation ceased to exist. There is no longer any legitimacy in armed militancy so the analogy doesn't hold.

I would contend that you have indeed expounded your world view, which is one of seeking to reform systems not seeking to over throw them.
This is where me and you differ.
We differ in that I'm pragmatic and you are idealistic. I would like to see the entire western corporate-imperialist structure overthrown; with an equitable existance afforded to all humanity. But I temper that with realism in regard to my expectations.

If you think republicans in a Stormont regime attempting to reform the system in the most piecemeal of fashions is preferable to attempting to undermine the system then that is your choice but please state it clearly, away from the veneer of being revolutionary.
You have overlooked how reform equals the death knell of fundamental progress and significant improvement.
Again this is a question of semantics, I believe in political progress towards the goal of a united Ireland within the context of pragmatic realism.

All it can acheive, at best, is a slight improvement of a system which is inherently unjust, that is nowhere enough to buy me off i'm afraid.
My knickers have never got wet at the sight of a new 'nationalist' middle class i'm afraid.
Welcome to the world of realpolitik. The only way forward is to be pragmatic and free of corruption. Did you not see today's papers where Ahern has been caught out for lying the Dáil about his taxes. Steady progress in the moral high-ground will ultimately reap benefits among an increasingly jaded and dissillusioned electorate.

If you are opposed to armed struggle and politcal violence on a point of common sense, you must have taken leave of it whilst supporting the IRA's armed struggle, and the IRA must only have acheived this common sense after decades of conflict, and republicans in general must never have possesed your enlightened common sense over a course of hundreds of years.
Bravo you.
I am opposed to it in the present, and any reallistically foreseeable climate. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that the conditions necessary for any measure of success do not exist. Quit trying to force my opinion in present context into a retrospective judgement. You are being deceitful in doing this. The present conditions have little bearing on those of 20 or 80 years ago, much has changed in Ireland, the world and human society. Quit trying to argue a point that you know is dishonest.

Cael

01-06-2008, 09:12 PM

What a bitter, hate-filled individual you are Cael. You are devoid of reason or tolerance for anything contrary to your fundamentalist agenda. You are the exact equivalent of the Loyalist thugs who threw urine on school girls at Holy Cross.

Interesting that you find intolerance of the British occupation forces to be equivelant to throwing urine on school children. The phrase about becoming more English than the English themselves comes to mind. Amazing what a few months in Stormont Castle has done to you lot.

East Tyrone

01-06-2008, 09:15 PM

Interesting that you find intolerance of the British occupation forces to be equivelant to throwing urine on school children. The phrase about becoming more English than the English themselves comes to mind. Amazing what a few months in Stormont Castle has done to you lot.
No Cael, I was referring to your bilious hatred of anyone who doesn't conform to your fundamentalist ideology. You are like a wee cyber brownshirt.

Cael

01-06-2008, 09:27 PM

No Cael, I was referring to your bilious hatred of anyone who doesn't conform to your fundamentalist ideology. You are like a wee cyber brownshirt.

I dont hate Good Natives or Uncle Toms, I pity them.

East Tyrone

01-07-2008, 07:24 AM

I dont hate Good Natives or Uncle Toms, I pity them.
Cael- the OG, keeping it real in the hood :icon_laugh:

Comrade Ryan

01-07-2008, 10:59 AM

You're the one that started picking holes. I don't think that so-called community justice is an effective replacement for conventional policing and justice. It appears that you disagree, can we leave it at that without another unnecessary, historical analysis?

Well where I live, and in the areas surrounding, the opposite is very much the case.

I wasn't laying the blame solely with him, there were others involved. Would you not agree that it is absolutely invalid to throw up the Sunningdale question, in the context of the Republican movement of the GFA era, when most of the senior decision makers of the Sunningdale era were no longer a factor?

There's a simple answer to the issue; cease and desist.

Totally differant scenario, the IRA began a popular campaign at the request of large sections of the community. This legitimised the campaign and young men and women routinely risked their lives in action. The IRA ended the campaign and this situation ceased to exist. There is no longer any legitimacy in armed militancy so the analogy doesn't hold.

We differ in that I'm pragmatic and you are idealistic. I would like to see the entire western corporate-imperialist structure overthrown; with an equitable existance afforded to all humanity. But I temper that with realism in regard to my expectations.

Again this is a question of semantics, I believe in political progress towards the goal of a united Ireland within the context of pragmatic realism.

Welcome to the world of realpolitik. The only way forward is to be pragmatic and free of corruption. Did you not see today's papers where Ahern has been caught out for lying the Dáil about his taxes. Steady progress in the moral high-ground will ultimately reap benefits among an increasingly jaded and dissillusioned electorate.

I am opposed to it in the present, and any reallistically foreseeable climate. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that the conditions necessary for any measure of success do not exist. Quit trying to force my opinion in present context into a retrospective judgement. You are being deceitful in doing this. The present conditions have little bearing on those of 20 or 80 years ago, much has changed in Ireland, the world and human society. Quit trying to argue a point that you know is dishonest.

Well without going through this post line by line and offering my rebutals, which I could do but feel that this debate will never end and its getting really tedious.

To me what has been demonstrated here is clear.

You view the PIRA campaign in a lens of exceptionalism. It is absolutely unique and is beyond comparative anaylsis with any other struggle at any other time.

I beleive this is false and is only put forward at the convenience of SF and many of their supporters.

In addition, you are reformists and I am a revolutionary (trust me I have no delusions about myself I am merely talking in broad terms). You believe in 'pragmatic realism' as does many a defeated revolutionary, I know that reformism has been attemted time and time again and that the main thing that will be reformed is SF. I believe their stances on hospitals, PFI, etc, prove this beyond doubt.

Thats where I think we're at.