What is RSF's position on abortion?

[Hessian Peel]

Is it Pro Choice or Pro Life?

I couldn't find anything on the RSF website.

[RSF-Fianoglach]

i dont know what the official line on it is but myself,im pro life and i know a lot of RSF people are pro life,but i dont know what the partys position is ill try to find out.

[Hessian Peel]

i dont know what the official line on it is but myself,im pro life and i know a lot of RSF people are pro life,but i dont know what the partys position is ill try to find out.


Thanks. I suspect (sadly) that the official position is Pro Life.

[Craobh Gal Gréine]

Thanks. I suspect (sadly) that the official position is Pro Life.


Why would you be glad if their position was to kill Irish children?

[quirk]

RSF are anti abortion.

[Hessian Peel]

Why would you be glad if their position was to kill Irish children?


Why do you tag Irish on there?

[Kat]

They maintain that while thier position is pro-life they recognise the circumstances that can lead to abortion... if you look further into thier positions on womens issues, the RSF priorities include comprehensive family planning for all women and comprehensive support for women and children alike. I have researched thier policies enough to find that the way rsf seems to view abortion is as something that can be PREVENTED, not just shunned or outlawed, that even though i am pro choice (fervently so, in fact) I applaud thier stance. And to be honest, i think it does more for womens rights than many of the most liberal of examples of pro choice policy, so though i would like to see safely obtained abortions available, i know they are available a ferry ride away, and more importantly, i also know that if family planning were available to most women, thousands of abortions would be prevented every year, and if mistakes were still made (which they will be) A strong support system for young families, that takes away the fear of bringing a baby into the world with no hope but for a future of poverty, can prevent most others. that is the stance sensible people need to take. Thier stance is one that has included all aspects of the issue, and is not one that is simply ideologically pro life at the expense of quality of life for women and children. Which is an IMMENSE difference from the stance of most ideologically pro life policy.

[MartinP]

If RSF ever adopted a pro-abortion position I'd never have anything to do with the organisation again. It's actually something RSF should clarify their position on at the Ard Fheis. I'm sure most members are opposed to it and there's at least one person on the Officer Board whose views on it pretty much mirror my own, and given the organisation's pro-equality position on everything else presumably the rest of the leadership feel the same or very close to the same.

Recognising the circumstances that can lead to abortion in no way indicates that they condone it in any way. I recognise why people have abortions, but I condemn those who do so as the murderers they are.

[Hessian Peel]

I recognise why people have abortions, but I condemn those who do so as the murderers they are.


How are they murderers?

[MartinP]

How are they murderers?


Because they end the life of an innocent person.

[Takeshi]

Why do you tag Irish on there?

It may be because RSF are an Irish party, and as such their policies would only affect Ireland.

[Kat]

If RSF ever adopted a pro-abortion position I'd never have anything to do with the organisation again. It's actually something RSF should clarify their position on at the Ard Fheis. I'm sure most members are opposed to it and there's at least one person on the Officer Board whose views on it pretty much mirror my own, and given the organisation's pro-equality position on everything else presumably the rest of the leadership feel the same or very close to the same.

Recognising the circumstances that can lead to abortion in no way indicates that they condone it in any way. I recognise why people have abortions, but I condemn those who do so as the murderers they are.






I think thier position on the matter is quite clear, it is on thier website, and eveident on all of thier womens policy documents, as well as explained in Ruari O'Bradiagh's biography. It is a position which i would find completely unnaceptable were it to maintain that women who have abortions are murderers... when in fact they are desperate, and tremendously afraid, and feel for whatever reason they have no better choice... Maintaining a pro life stance and simultaineoulsy offering the better choices that women so desperately need is a far better solution than to simply continue to allow Irish children to live entire lifetimes in poverty and need. In the current state of irish income inequality that exists today, I think abortions need to be legal, no ifs ands or buts... it is not Irish women who murder thier children it is an Irish society who fails to look out for its vulnerable who murder them. Give Irish women good choices, chances are they will make them. Eire Nua offers these good choices, and under it abortions will likely become so rare as to be a non issue.

[MartinP]

I think thier position on the matter is quite clear, it is on thier website, and eveident on all of thier womens policy documents, as well as explained in Ruari O'Bradiagh's biography. It is a position which i would find completely unnaceptable were it to maintain that women who have abortions are murderers...


The part in the Ó'Brádaigh biography doesn't go into any great detail about the current position of the organisation. It mentions a document from 1980 called "Women in the New Ireland", which states "we are totally opposed to abortion...". The fact that the document goes on to say "we are also opposed to the forces in society which impel women to have abortions" doesn't detract from the "we are totally opposed" part. And while it may not say those who have/perform abortions are murderers, surely reading between the lines and the fact that the organisation is opposed to it says exactly that. The anti-abortion position stems from a moral argument that a life is intentionally ended - therefore a murder takes place, hence the procedure is wrong and the organisation opposes it.

when in fact they are desperate, and tremendously afraid, and feel for whatever reason they have no better choice...


As for the desperation and the fear, that would not be a universal feeling among those getting their child aborted. In fact, one of the very few cases I know of where someone has had an abortion was a woman who had her fourth abortion and when it was done she headed off shopping for the afternoon. That to me sounds like someone who doesn't care about anyone but herself. Personally I think she deserves to die and if there's a hell she should burn in it.

In the current state of irish income inequality that exists today, I think abortions need to be legal, no ifs ands or buts... it is not Irish women who murder thier children it is an Irish society who fails to look out for its vulnerable who murder them. Give Irish women good choices, chances are they will make them. Eire Nua offers these good choices, and under it abortions will likely become so rare as to be a non issue.


Well thankfully they're illegal in Ireland, and while it's pretty easy to hop on a plane to England to kill the child, the lack of availability of abortion here is undoubtedly saving countless lives. And if keeping it illegal saves the life of one person then it's right to ensure it remains illegal.
Glad to see you're recognising it as murder (and it's something I've touched on at the top of this post), you're on the first step to realising how terrible it is and maybe one day adopting what I consider the morally right position.

[RSF-Fianoglach]

well said martin

[East Tyrone]

RSF only accept late-term abortions, a decade or two after conception with a spade as the surgical implement of choice.

[quirk]

Could someone link to their policy documents on this issue or their womens policies as I have never read these and would like to.

[Kat]

[QUOTE=MartinP;44482]
As for the desperation and the fear, that would not be a universal feeling among those getting their child aborted. In fact, one of the very few cases I know of where someone has had an abortion was a woman who had her fourth abortion and when it was done she headed off shopping for the afternoon. That to me sounds like someone who doesn't care about anyone but herself. Personally I think she deserves to die and if there's a hell she should burn in it.


Well Martin, i have to say, I am a woman, and i know lots of women... I have not ever had an abortion myself cause well... i could not, but i do know women who have... And to a letter not a of them feel it is a form of birth control or flew into it as cavalierly as you say, parhaps i know much higher quality, more moral people than yourself, but i have noticed that the great majority of ideological pro lifers know just such a woman... pro lifers always know the one who has an abortion in her seventh month just so she can fit into her formal for the student mixer... Or else they know the one who over and over, endures an expensive, inconvenient, very painful, bloody and psychologically wrenching procedure, only to just go off shopping or to the pub after like nothing happened...

this seems to be because it is somehow less trouble than taking an inexpensive pill. A more "preferable" form of birth control...well i think that story deliberately minimises the reality of the abortion procedure, perhaps encouraging women to make that choice, by giving them the false impression that it is an easy way out of thier predicament. when in fact it is not. Regardless on your stance at where life begins... even if one does not personally believe it is a baby, she is still having tissue forcibly removed from her body in a very painful manner, it is still expensive, it still involves blood loss, it still leads to highly unpleasant hormonal fluctuation for weeks or months after, it is SURGERY, and nothing remotely easier than looking after oneself in the first place.... So even taking away any possile ideological arguments of life v. not life and assuming (IMO incorrectly it is not) abortion is STILL not actually a good options.

So i think that this this woman who all the pro lifers know personally is probably selfish and thoughtless and probably would make a terrible mother and is a great example of why abortions should be condemned without thought, cause she enables us to focus on the sadness of the result and and make it only about the selfishness of the mother not on the reality of the circumstances of the act.... But this only works IF she exists outside of prolife mythology...

However, even if she does exist and you do actually know her, I also maintain that that woman needs psychological help, and sympathy and medical care, because that woman has SERIOUS mental health issues. she is not well, and is crying out for help acting in that manner. Where she forced to bear a child, that child would be in danger without question. because that woman has in her actions demonstrated a horrifyingly low regard for herself, and for the life she carries within her. That is the story of a woman who either thrives on pain, or has so little regard for life she might be capable of terminating the life of her child long past its teenage years. That is of course if you ACTUALLY know her... More likely you just have heard of her... i think she is more myth than fact.

[Kat]

RSF only accept late-term abortions, a decade or two after conception with a spade as the surgical implement of choice.


Really now... whereas the Provisionals only accept late term abortions, a decade or two after conception with dozens of men and nail studded cudgels and iron bars in a secluded barn while his friends are forced to listen to thier mate ssream then gasp than sputter and die as thier surgical implement?


ENORMOUS STACK OF POTS? meet kettle.

[scarface]

RSF only accept late-term abortions, a decade or two after conception with a spade as the surgical implement of choice.

yawn stop posting this kind of rubbish

[Hildy]

[QUOTE=MartinP;44482]
As for the desperation and the fear, that would not be a universal feeling among those getting their child aborted. In fact, one of the very few cases I know of where someone has had an abortion was a woman who had her fourth abortion and when it was done she headed off shopping for the afternoon. That to me sounds like someone who doesn't care about anyone but herself. Personally I think she deserves to die and if there's a hell she should burn in it.

Well Martin, i have to say, I am a woman, and i know lots of women... I have not ever had an abortion myself cause well... i could not, but i do know women who have... And to a letter not a of them feel it is a form of birth control or flew into it as cavalierly as you say, parhaps i know much higher quality, more moral people than yourself, but i have noticed that the great majority of ideological pro lifers know just such a woman... pro lifers always know the one who has an abortion in her seventh month just so she can fit into her formal for the student mixer... Or else they know the one who over and over, endures an expensive, inconvenient, very painful, bloody and psychologically wrenching procedure, only to just go off shopping or to the pub after like nothing happened...

this seems to be because it is somehow less trouble than taking an inexpensive pill. A more "preferable" form of birth control...well i think that story deliberately minimises the reality of the abortion procedure, perhaps encouraging women to make that choice, by giving them the false impression that it is an easy way out of thier predicament. when in fact it is not. Regardless on your stance at where life begins... even if one does not personally believe it is a baby, she is still having tissue forcibly removed from her body in a very painful manner, it is still expensive, it still involves blood loss, it still leads to highly unpleasant hormonal fluctuation for weeks or months after, it is SURGERY, and nothing remotely easier than looking after oneself in the first place.... So even taking away any possile ideological arguments of life v. not life and assuming (IMO incorrectly it is not) abortion is STILL not actually a good options.

So i think that this this woman who all the pro lifers know personally is probably selfish and thoughtless and probably would make a terrible mother and is a great example of why abortions should be condemned without thought, cause she enables us to focus on the sadness of the result and and make it only about the selfishness of the mother not on the reality of the circumstances of the act.... But this only works IF she exists outside of prolife mythology...

However, even if she does exist and you do actually know her, I also maintain that that woman needs psychological help, and sympathy and medical care, because that woman has SERIOUS mental health issues. she is not well, and is crying out for help acting in that manner. Where she forced to bear a child, that child would be in danger without question. because that woman has in her actions demonstrated a horrifyingly low regard for herself, and for the life she carries within her. That is the story of a woman who either thrives on pain, or has so little regard for life she might be capable of terminating the life of her child long past its teenage years. That is of course if you ACTUALLY know her... More likely you just have heard of her... i think she is more myth than fact.



Well said Kat! Even though I am (myself) against abortion, I feel it is warranted in some extreme cases. Otherwise, I totally agree with what you said. And having it come from a woman's perspective makes a hell of a lot of difference, especially, when it's men trying to make these moralist laws for women!! It doesn't effect them biologically or psychologically, only morally so they really have no business making these judgements as far as I'm concerned! Its her body, her morals, her psyche, her judgement!

[East Tyrone]

Really now... whereas the Provisionals only accept late term abortions, a decade or two after conception with dozens of men and nail studded cudgels and iron bars in a secluded barn while his friends are forced to listen to thier mate ssream then gasp than sputter and die as thier surgical implement?


ENORMOUS STACK OF POTS? meet kettle.
Enormous stack of shyte morelike. Nobody but those with an agenda believe the IRA had anything to do with that crime.
yawn stop posting this kind of rubbish
I feel the same way after reading about 95% of what you and your cohorts post.

[scarface]

Enormous stack of shyte morelike. Nobody but those with an agenda believe the IRA had anything to do with that crime.


so the quinn family have an agenda do they? the local people have an agenda do they?

[East Tyrone]

so the quinn family have an agenda do they? the local people have an agenda do they?

The Quinn family are being manipulated by those with an agenda. I cannot speak for the "local people" as I live in Tyrone, not Armagh. You'd probably be in a much better position to judge their agenda from Kildare.

[scarface]

The Quinn family are being manipulated by those with an agenda. I cannot speak for the "local people" as I live in Tyrone, not Armagh. You'd probably be in a much better position to judge their agenda from Kildare.

of course the family are being manipulated that's why they said it was the provos very soon after the murder the master manipulaters must of got to the family just before the last bone in paul quinns body was broken and the local people don't have an agenda they know who the individual provos that done it and have vented their anger at them

[East Tyrone]

As you say "individual"s committed this awful crime; not the IRA or anyone representing them. If I had relevant information in regard to this crime I would have no hesitation in providing it to the PSNI, regardless of who the "indiviual"s were.

[scarface]

As you say "individual"s committed this awful crime; not the IRA or anyone representing them. If I had relevant information in regard to this crime I would have no hesitation in providing it to the PSNI, regardless of who the "indiviual"s were.

they were obviously individual provos of course it wasn't all the provos and don't say that the next time you go to a commemoration in S.Armagh

[Kat]

Could someone link to their policy documents on this issue or their womens policies as I have never read these and would like to.

http://rsf.ie/



references to women and childrens policies are peppered throughout this entire website, from nearly every speech linked, to the main policies of eire Nua and Saol Nua, i suggest starting with Saol Nua since it is short and can be digested quite easily, it lays out specific societal goals which would alleviate the strain on women, children and and young families in regards to childcare, nutrition and housing, it also specifically references policiies geared towards men sharing in the familial role and economic principle which would enable this to realistically happen within a society... it also specifically addresses health care issues and education...

Within the framework of an Ireland geared towards equality and sustainability, these sorts of principles would be much simpler to foster within a society. Within the framework of Eire Nua ans Saol Nua, they would be more than just ideas on paper, they would actually work.


Though i have to admit Quirk, I would like to see a specific section devoted to womens issues on the official rsf website, i have found that with a little research, all the questions i have are answered satisfactorily.

[East Tyrone]

they were obviously individual provos of course it wasn't all the provos and don't say that the next time you go to a commemoration in S.Armagh

So now you are accepting that it was individual alleged Provos, that's a bit of a climedown from:

that's why they said it was the provos

The murder was committed by individuals acting in a criminal manner on no authority but their own. I would have no fears about condemning their actions in any part of Ireland.

[scarface]

So now you are accepting that it was individual alleged Provos, that's a bit of a climedown from:



The murder was committed by individuals acting in a criminal manner on no authority but their own. I would have no fears about condemning their actions in any part of Ireland.

the people who killed him were provos and one of the criminals who killed him was the authority in the area

[MartinP]

However, even if she does exist and you do actually know her, I also maintain that that woman needs psychological help, and sympathy and medical care, because that woman has SERIOUS mental health issues. she is not well, and is crying out for help acting in that manner. Where she forced to bear a child, that child would be in danger without question. because that woman has in her actions demonstrated a horrifyingly low regard for herself, and for the life she carries within her. That is the story of a woman who either thrives on pain, or has so little regard for life she might be capable of terminating the life of her child long past its teenage years. That is of course if you ACTUALLY know her... More likely you just have heard of her... i think she is more myth than fact.[/COLOR]


I can confirm she does exist (at least to the best of my knowledge). I've never met her. I know of her because someone I know who had an abortion got talking to her in the death clinic when they were both in at the same time. I didn't ask too many questions about her to be honest, but the converation and abortion took place in July 2006. Given that it was her fourth by that stage, it may very well not have been her last by now. Strangely perhaps, one of the other cases I know of (out of 4 women I know about) the woman had 2 abortions. Knowing of these women hasn't reinforced my position on the issue. I just think each are more of a scumbag than those who do it once. In my opinion anyone who has ever had an abortion should be sterilised and imprisoned and any children they may have should be taken into care.

[quirk]

http://rsf.ie/



references to women and childrens policies are peppered throughout this entire website, from nearly every speech linked, to the main policies of eire Nua and Saol Nua, i suggest starting with Saol Nua since it is short and can be digested quite easily, it lays out specific societal goals which would alleviate the strain on women, children and and young families in regards to childcare, nutrition and housing, it also specifically references policiies geared towards men sharing in the familial role and economic principle which would enable this to realistically happen within a society... it also specifically addresses health care issues and education...

Within the framework of an Ireland geared towards equality and sustainability, these sorts of principles would be much simpler to foster within a society. Within the framework of Eire Nua ans Saol Nua, they would be more than just ideas on paper, they would actually work.


Though i have to admit Quirk, I would like to see a specific section devoted to womens issues on the official rsf website, i have found that with a little research, all the questions i have are answered satisfactorily.

No p[roblem Kat. I have read all their documents just I thought maybe they had one just dealing with womens issues which I missed.

[Mellows1922]

and don't say that the next time you go to a commemoration in S.Armagh

Does Edentubber count as South Armagh ? Well the function afterwards certainly does, and the general consensus there was what East Tyrone is saying. Or is it only certain commemorations that it shouldn't be said at ?