sinn féin remains opposed to the use of tazers.

[unitedireland]

PSNI Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde has received legal advice that says he has the power to deploy tasers - meaning special operations cops could be carrying the 50,000 volt stun guns in a matter of days.

Sir Hugh had already signalled his intention to have 12 tasers - which police see as a less lethal alternative to firearms - in his officers' hands by the end of this month.

After two days' training, the weapons will be authorised for use in pre-planned firearms operations and in response to "spontaneous firearms scenarios".

The deployment is scheduled to take place despite continued objections from sections of the Policing Board - including both the SDLP and Sinn Fein - and several human rights groups.

But the Chief Constable's legal advice is understood to conclude that the deployment of tasers is an operational matter, which puts decisions on their deployment in his hands.

That may mean the board is powerless to stop him, and the only course for opponents would be to challenge police in court.

Sir Hugh told the board last month that it is "untenable" for the PSNI to avoid using the stun guns, when the Garda and all British forces use them.

He cited a number of instances where his officers could have killed armed suspects with their guns, but would have been able to disarm them with tasers.

The weapons disable the target with 50,000 volts of electricity, either through close contact with the gun or jagged barbs fired from several feet away.

[Hildy]

We had a discussion on this very subject not too long ago, unitedireland, here.

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?p=35558&highlight=tazers#post35558

The consensus was that the use of tazers was acceptable to those that posted to this thread. The only concern being that they didn't care if the police used, tazers, bazookas, plastic bullets, or pea shooters, but all they had issue with was SF's 'reformist attitude' and 'enforcing english laws' through their working with the PSNI and being involved in this issue in the first place!

i wouldnt care if the ruc/psni carried peashooters, the point is they are enforcing english laws in ireland and your party endorses that.

that they carry bazookas, tazers or peashooters makes no difference.

but such an article is indicative of the mild reformist attitude that prevails in the "dont rock the boat" party of SF (so called revolutionary party)

Tasers & Stun Guns are much better IMO than plastic bullets, or the customary ammunition, but they are still dangerous and have been proven to be with a multiple deaths ocurring recently due to their increased use. If they are willing to implement and pay for new 'alternative weaponry' why aren't they looking at other options, like the use of Pepper Spray, or these alternative non-lethal weapons......

"Flex Baton 12-gauge shotgun, which fires, among other things, "socks," or "bean bags," which are filled with lead pellets smaller than the BBs fired from air rifles."

Rubber bullets are also used inside what is known as a number-15 stingball grenade, which delivers a loud noise and sprays several .32-caliber rubber balls." (Rubber balls) are intended to cause pain," he said. "An unintended consequence is injury."

"The wooden bullets - which are sometimes replaced with foam bullets - fired from the Gas Gun are more dangerous than rubber bullets and are meant to skip off the ground and hit people in the legs, Azuelo said."

http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/94/140/01_1_m.html


It's just common sense, that if they are going to the expense of alternative non-lethal weaponry, that they would explore all options available. And I am glad that the discussion is even going on, and that these groups, i.e., SDLP and Sinn Fein - and several human rights groups are declaring their objections!

[unitedireland]

i agree tazers are much better for the people in this island better then guns and plastic bullets,but sinn féin disagree with the use of tazers as it is not in the best interest of the police officers on patrol. just imagine the scenario a gun man pointing his weapon of choice to the police office and the officer pulls out a tazer gun it is common sense who is going to come out on top if the situation worsened.but hugh orde couldnt give a donkeys the expense of the tazers will be far less then your average hand gun.

[Mellows1922]

i agree tazers are much better for the people in this island better then guns and plastic bullets,but sinn féin disagree with the use of tazers as it is not in the best interest of the police officers on patrol. .

That isn't why Sinn Fein are opposed to the use of tazers, Sinn Fein want the lethal weapons they already have taken out of the hands of the police, not another lethal weapon added to their arsenal.

[unitedireland]

that actually is not the reason i was told this,we had a debate yesterday about this subject!!

[Mellows1922]

that actually is not the reason i was told this,we had a debate yesterday about this subject!!

A debate with who ?

I can guarantee the reason Sinn Fein is opposed to tazers is because they are a lethal weapon.

[unitedireland]

other members in sinn féin and my cumann leader!!

and im not being smart if you caan guarantee this please do.

[Mellows1922]

other members in sinn féin and my cumann leader!!

and im not being smart if you caan guarantee this please do.

I wasn't trying to be smart either, apologies if I came across that way.


http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/22922

Sinn Féin Policing Board member Daithí McKay has said that the party will monitor the pilot introduction of TASERs to the PSNI and that the party remained firmly opposed to their introduction.

Mr McKay said:

"Sinn Féin are opposed to the introduction of TASERs. The fact is that across the world the use of these weapons has led to many deaths. The PSNI has failed to demonstrate that it requires these potentially lethal weapons and we are very concerned at the decision to move ahead with the trial of TASERs here. There is a volume of evidence highlighting their lethal nature.

"In the North many of the Human Rights and Children's Rights groups have expressed serious concern about the use of TASERs particularly on young people, pregnant women and people with specific health conditions.

"We only have to look at the number of deaths and injuries caused by other 'less lethal' weapons favoured by the police such as Plastic Bullets to see that the potential for injuries and death.

"Our objective is to see a routinely unarmed police service. We do not believe that plastic bullets or TASERs are the solution. We will monitor the situation very closely." ENDS

[unitedireland]

ok thanks for the input ill take it up next thursday with my cumann leader and see what he says.

[Mellows1922]

ok thanks for the input ill take it up next thursday with my cumann leader and see what he says.

No bother, definitley raise the issue though.

[Hildy]

unitedireland, here's a good article relating to deaths by taser. May help with your research on the subject.

An ongoing investigation by The Republic has identified 132 deaths in the United States and Canada after police Taser use since 1999. Of those, medical examiners cited the Taser in 17 deaths. A Taser was ruled as a cause of death in three cases and a contributing factor in 10 cases. In four cases, medical examiners said they could not rule out Tasers as a cause of death.

That was in January of this year. The figure hasn't changed, and if the Cook County M.E. does state that the taser was the cause of death, something that hasn't happened before, it would open a can of worms that would be hard to ignore.


Death by Taser (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/07/30/649/68228)

That's great that you are going to raise the issue with yer cumann leader!! Let us know the outcome, Good luck!

[unitedireland]

thanks hildy.i will i will let you know the second i come home from the meeting.



but i could have missunderstood him but i oubt that very much i am very intelliagent:icon_lol:

[duggie-89]

thanks hildy.i will i will let you know the second i come home from the meeting.



but i could have missunderstood him but i oubt that very much i am very intelliagent:icon_lol:

and confident :icon_lol::icon_lol: only jokin

but in my opinion teasers firstly give the police a less leath weapon compared to a gun but still leathel and so will encourage more triger happy cops

[FTA69]

like the use of Pepper Spray, or these alternative non-lethal weapons......


F*ck that, a buddy of mine got CS sprayed into the face there on Thursday and the result wasn't pretty to tell the truth. That stuff is torturous and it shouldn't be allowed, it can also kill or permanently blind.

[quirk]

To argue that tasers are less harmful than guns ignores the fact that they will still be carrying guns. I am glad the Sinn Fein are opposed to the introduction of these but the fact that the cops are going ahead and getting them anyway raises questions around the whole issue of "holding the PSNI to account".

[robertemmett]

the psni/uc are still upholding english law in ireland, no matter what weapons or tools they use. to argue about cosmetic changes to that forces is an indication of how the provisional movement have lowered themselves to the normalisation of english rule in ireland.

[Hildy]

the psni/uc are still upholding english law in ireland, no matter what weapons or tools they use. to argue about cosmetic changes to that forces is an indication of how the provisional movement have lowered themselves to the normalisation of english rule in ireland.

OMG robert! Do you not read the article?? It said:

The deployment is scheduled to take place despite continued objections from sections of the Policing Board - including both the SDLP and Sinn Fein - and several human rights groups.

But the Chief Constable's legal advice is understood to conclude that the deployment of tasers is an operational matter, which puts decisions on their deployment in his hands.

That may mean the board is powerless to stop him, and the only course for opponents would be to challenge police in court.


So what that means, robert is that regardless of the Policing Boards objections, it wouldn't matter anyway because it is an 'operational matter'. And it just isn't SF that objects, its the SDLP and several other groups, so get off the 'normalisation of english rule' schtick, it has nothing to do with that and you know it! The gardai have them in the south, so does that indicate that they are upholding english law by having them too??

The fact is, SF is only following the "Patten recommendations on a non-lethal alternative to Plastic Bullets and Firearms are delivered." And recently the, "lethal nature of TASERs was demonstrated", and “Sinn Féin is opposed to the use of what is obviously a lethal weapon. We want to see a policing service that is fully compliant with international human rights standards and that can deal with public order without resorting to lethal force”, Anderson said.

So now tell me what is wrong with that? If you lived in a United Ireland right now, would it make any difference to you then? Or would you still object to SF trying oppose adding more potentially deadly weapons to the police force, rather than taking them away? You make no sense to me!

[robertemmett]

OMG robert! Do you not read the article?? It said:

The deployment is scheduled to take place despite continued objections from sections of the Policing Board - including both the SDLP and Sinn Fein - and several human rights groups.

But the Chief Constable's legal advice is understood to conclude that the deployment of tasers is an operational matter, which puts decisions on their deployment in his hands.

That may mean the board is powerless to stop him, and the only course for opponents would be to challenge police in court.


So what that means, robert is that regardless of the Policing Boards objections, it wouldn't matter anyway because it is an 'operational matter'. And it just isn't SF that objects, its the SDLP and several other groups, so get off the 'normalisation of english rule' schtick, it has nothing to do with that and you know it! The gardai have them in the south, so does that indicate that they are upholding english law by having them too??

The fact is, SF is only following the "Patten recommendations on a non-lethal alternative to Plastic Bullets and Firearms are delivered." And recently the, "lethal nature of TASERs was demonstrated", and “Sinn Féin is opposed to the use of what is obviously a lethal weapon. We want to see a policing service that is fully compliant with international human rights standards and that can deal with public order without resorting to lethal force”, Anderson said.

So now tell me what is wrong with that? If you lived in a United Ireland right now, would it make any difference to you then? Or would you still object to SF trying oppose adding more potentially deadly weapons to the police force, rather than taking them away? You make no sense to me!

i did read the article Hildy.

the fact that the policing board etc have no say in what the cops do "operationally" merely highlights, even more, how when important decisions are taken concerning the cops... psf are in no position to do any thing about it

if this a site of struggle, i fail to see what earth shattering changes they are going to make to the administration of english laws through the the psni.

perhaps the psfer can struggle to have the egg and onion sandwichs struck off the refreshment list at the next policing board meeting.

furthermore

psf getting worked up about the tools used by the enforcers of english law is an indication of how they accept the legitmacy of the psni.

[Hildy]

robert, you said previously you didn't care if they had peashooters or bazookas, so why do care anyway? How can you be apathetic and detached on this issue one minute, but when SF is involved you are suddenly concerned and interested? Yer motives here are so transparent!

[robertemmett]

robert, you said previously you didn't care if they had peashooters or bazookas, so why do care anyway? How can you be apathetic and detached on this issue one minute, but when SF is involved you are suddenly concerned and interested? Yer motives here are so transparent!

i dont care what they carry hildy, your right. it who is carrying them that counts and why they carrying them. and tell me what wrong for criticising psf for working in tandem with the english law enforcers??

[Hildy]

i dont care what they carry hildy, your right. it who is carrying them that counts and why they carrying them. and tell me what wrong for criticising psf for working in tandem with the english law enforcers??


Well I don't see you complaining about the SDLP or the Equality Commission and a number of Human Rights organisations that have voiced opposition to the introduction of tasers. They aren't upholding english law I guess, just SF?

[robertemmett]

Well I don't see you complaining about the SDLP or the Equality Commission and a number of Human Rights organisations that have voiced opposition to the introduction of tasers. They aren't upholding english law I guess, just SF?

well when IR.net adds the SDLP and Equality commission sections to this site, i will be sure to voice my concerns there too.

but until then i am forced to criticise sf as the only party here interested in the normalisation of english rule.

[Hildy]

well when IR.net adds the SDLP and Equality commission sections to this site, i will be sure to voice my concerns there too.

but until then i am forced to criticise sf as the only party here interested in the normalisation of english rule.

that's yer only job here robert, is to criticise SF. You and a couple others. You all would live in a perfect world if SF wasn't in it, right?

[robertemmett]

that's yer only job here robert, is to criticise SF. You and a couple others. You all would live in a perfect life if SF wasn't in it, right?

not at all hildy, but considering those other groups do not present thmselves here, i can hardly address them, but psf do presnt themselves as some form of republican grouping.

and hildy, what is your job here then? some sort of proxy cheerleader for the leadership of a party who are being paid handsomely by the british government to be a moderate middle of the road party??

[Hildy]

not at all hildy, but considering those other groups do not present thmselves here, i can hardly address them, but psf do presnt themselves as some form of republican grouping.

and hildy, what is your job here then? some sort of proxy cheerleader for the leadership of a party who are being paid handsomely by the british government to be a moderate middle of the road party??

That's an assinine assumption robert, and I resent your implication!

[robertemmett]

That's an assinine assumption robert, and I resent your implication!


assinine is word used alot on this site.

mellows there is quite fond of it too

is it a psf word "de jour"???

[Hildy]

assinine is word used alot on this site.

mellows there is quite fond of it too

is it a psf word "de jour"???


No, it's just a more "politically correct" way of saying this.........



http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s6/hildydonovan/dcb2490.gif



http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s6/hildydonovan/Emoticons/add1_ja.gif

[robertemmett]

well i didnt take a hissy fit, when you suggested what my "job" was in the previous post.

[Hildy]

well i didnt take a hissy fit, when you suggested what my "job" was in the previous post.

must have hit a nerve, heh?:)

[robertemmett]

must have hit a nerve, heh?:)

with you, it would appear.

[robertemmett]

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/images/one?id=205096&size=f

[Hildy]

robert, just for the record!

Anger at PSNI deployment TASERS
Sinn Féin (http://sinnfein.ie/news/detail/23715)
25 January, 2008

Sinn Féin Policing Board Member, Martina Anderson MLA has reiterated the party's opposition to TASERS after it emerged that the PSNI will began deploying the controversial weapons from today (Friday).

Ms Anderson said:

"Despite the wealth of evidence from Human Rights and Children's Rights groups about the lethal nature of TASERS, the PSNI have today deployed them to officers across the North..

"Unfortunately, Hugh Orde has chosen to ignore the warnings about the deadly nature of TASERS. He has ignored the concerns of the Policing Board. He has ignored the views of the Equality Commission and respected Human Rights organisations and he has ignored the evidence which shows that TASERS have been involved in the deaths of hundreds of people internationally.

"However, Sinn Féin will continue to oppose this deployment and we will be tabling a motion at the next Policing Board meeting demanding that Hugh Orde withdraws them from use.

"We only have to look at the number of deaths and injuries caused by other 'less lethal' weapons favoured by the police such as plastic bullets to see that the potential for injuries and death.

"Our objective is to see a routinely unarmed police service. We do not believe that plastic bullets or TASERs are the solution."

[VzN]

Didn't someone get killed by a Taser recently?

[Seabird]

Yes it made international news, I believe it was in Canada at an airport, when he was shocked he suffered a heart attack and died.

[Mellows1922]

Yes it made international news, I believe it was in Canada at an airport, when he was shocked he suffered a heart attack and died.

Not sure if it's a seperate incident you are thinking of, but a guy died in England last week after being shot with a tazer.

[Seabird]

Mellows,

It was this one
Tasers Kill (http://www.crunchgear.com/2007/10/29/another-taser-death-addled-polish-immigrant-killed-by-airport-officials/)

While looking for this I found an article that was quite interesting:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGAMR510302006

[ciaranxavier]

Yes it made international news, I believe it was in Canada at an airport, when he was shocked he suffered a heart attack and died.

it was an old polish man whod come to canada to visit his mother. he could barely speak english and couldnt find the person he was looking for. hed never been outside of poland. the cops ganged up on him and tasered him. i think this is more of an issue of police brutality then tasers killing as they used the taser twice and at his age that is probably what proved to be fatal. my boss is a polish immigrant and this hit home with him. i think tasers are a good thing when used properly. if it hadnt been for a guy going to court to get his film back the cops gangin up on him wouldve never been found out. its sad really.

[VzN]

Just murder in a 'more acceptable' form it would seem.