World War II

[DFCRFB]

Ok we have had numerous debates in different sections about world war 2 and what happened and who won it etc. so lets all have your theories in here folks.

[eghzarw]

You mean, who really contributed most to victory and so on?

[DFCRFB]

You mean, who really contributed most to victory and so on?

yeah mate. there has been numerous thread in the diff sections about who did this, who lied about what they did, just trying to get them all in the history section.

[eghzarw]

Well, one thing is sure: Russians believe they have done all the job while the rest sat watching. Any hint that USA or someone else had also proved useful in the fight is bound to raise outrage on most Russian forums, what with the latest political climate etc.

[DFCRFB]

my mate used to think the maericans won the war on their own. mind you that was due to the fact hollywood had warped his brain into thinking they did it alone!

[broche]

it was the russians who won it, the axis army that invaded russia was over 5 million strong, plus the resourses they had not to mention the oil and raw materials the germans would have gotton had they not invaded. could you imagine what would have been the outcome if the Germans had those kind of resources to use on the western front? the Aliies would have never gotton a foothold in france and britain would not have lasted long

[eghzarw]

my mate used to think the maericans won the war on their own. mind you that was due to the fact hollywood had warped his brain into thinking they did it alone!

Movies are of course a strong weapon in the study of history :icon_lol:

[DFCRFB]

he thought so. the movie platoon shocked him as he always thought the germans were the bad guys and the americans all good lol

[eghzarw]

Well, recently there was a trend of revisionism in Russian cinema too, the public was confused to see decent Germans -- even decent Nazi in that context. After 70 years of black-and-white the lightest shade of grey seems sooo surprising.

[DFCRFB]

yeah the film "the pianist" was one which i enjoyed. showed the good side of the germans and the nasty side to the russians (i didnt actually expect this mind you)

[eghzarw]

yeah the film "the pianist" was one which i enjoyed. showed the good side of the germans and the nasty side to the russians (i didnt actually expect this mind you)

Yes, a very powerful film. I both liked it and couldn't watch it again, it was too disturbing.

But there was just one 'good' German there, in all truth. And of course Russians' behaviour towards the participants of the Warsaw Rising was despicable and dishonourable, both during it and especially after the war.

[DFCRFB]

Yes, a very powerful film. I both liked it and couldn't watch it again, it was too disturbing.

But there was just one 'good' German there, in all truth. And of course Russians' behaviour towards the participants of the Warsaw Rising was despicable and dishonourable, both during it and especially after the war.

seriously? i didnt think it was too bad that film, it was brilliant and one i enjoyed watching tho.

i enjoy watching the history channel etc on programmes on the war. mind you im far from any expect but i find it really intersting listening to the germans stories.

[eghzarw]

seriously? i didnt think it was too bad that film, it was brilliant and one i enjoyed watching tho.

i enjoy watching the history channel etc on programmes on the war. mind you im far from any expect but i find it really intersting listening to the germans stories.

Of course it was brilliant, but I suppose I had over-empathysed with the protagonists (girls tend to do that, you know :-).

Yeah, History Channel is great. I've also enjoyed a multi-part program on WWI on Discovery a couple of years ago. It was all period footage and stories from diaries, letters etc.

By the way, did you know that in Soviet Union before the war the foreign language routinely studied in school was German, but they changed it to English afterwards, because the people had bad memories about it.

[DFCRFB]

i dont blame them after what the germans did to their nation.

[Nationalrevolutionär]

i dont blame them after what the germans did to their nation.

What do you mean with "did to their nation" ?

[Takeshi]

i dont blame them after what the germans did to their nation.

Two wrongs make a right?

[eghzarw]

i dont blame them after what the germans did to their nation.

In all truth, DFCRFB, it wasn't the Germans as such, it was Hitler's army, and there were also Italians and Romanians among the Germans who fought against USSR.

[wherenow]

Nior choir duinn Russia a rá. Bhi sé an USSR na Russain Empire.

We should not call them Russia. It was the USSR or the Russain Empire (depends on your viewpoint. I would say USSR, but neve Russia alone.

[BuckfastBhoy]

the fact that the nazis commited horrible atrocaties during WWII shouldnt overshadow the henious acts commited by the other forces

the rape and pillaging of Berlin after the red armies invasion.
the allied fire bombing of Dresden

[wherenow]

Aontaim leat.

I agree, the ordinary Germans sufferd terrible as a result of the Nazies and they were ethnically cleansed from massive parts of Europe, especailly Czech republic and Poland.

[DFCRFB]

What do you mean with "did to their nation" ?

invaded it, killed, murdered and raped their people. that enough for you? that would make anyone slighty ****ed against an invaded force.

[BuckfastBhoy]

the taking of ones land from them is the greatest crime of all, no matter who it happens to

[mickyk200]

the taking of ones land from them is the greatest crime of all, no matter who it happens to
Hitler's promise of lebenstrum or living space after the Treaty of Versailles was what gave alot of Germans a cause to support the national socialist party. So what does that tell you childeren? Invasion can sometimes lead to genocide =P

[ciaranxavier]

Two wrongs make a right?

choosing to teach another foreign language isnt wrong its a choice made by a country. get your head on your shoulders boy. and this is my 2000th post oh ya.:eusa_clap::eusa_dance::hooray::eusa_boohoo: :punk: :tease::whistle: :chair::hump::drunk: oh ya.

[mickyk200]

choosing to teach another foreign language isnt wrong its a choice made by a country. get your head on your shoulders boy. and this is my 2000th post oh ya.:eusa_clap::eusa_dance::hooray::eusa_boohoo: :punk: :tease::whistle: :chair::hump::drunk: oh ya.
2001st...=P

[Hessian Peel]

The Second World War was, needless to say, a blinding disgrace. The Nazi concentration and extermination camps, the barbarism of the advancing Red Army, the horrendous bombings carried out by the Allies (such as Dresden and Tokyo) and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were all as bad as each other.

[eghzarw]

choosing to teach another foreign language isnt wrong its a choice made by a country.

I've checked my data -- as a matter of fact, it didn't happen all at once, it's just that gradually German was dropped from school in most parts of the country, and about 1960 English had become the default foreign language taught. But it also depended on the availability of teachers and on the geographic region (in Asia they learned Chinese or Turkish instead). And in Kazakhstan, where lots of Germans had been deported, German was left as it was.

[mickyk200]

The Second World War was, needless to say, a blinding disgrace. The Nazi concentration and extermination camps, the barbarism of the advancing Red Army, the horrendous bombings carried out by the Allies (such as Dresden and Tokyo) and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were all as bad as each other.
History is written by the winner chara...

[Hessian Peel]

Indeed.

[ciaranxavier]

I've checked my data -- as a matter of fact, it didn't happen all at once, it's just that gradually German was dropped from school in most parts of the country, and about 1960 English had become the default foreign language taught. But it also depended on the availability of teachers and on the geographic region (in Asia they learned Chinese or Turkish instead). And in Kazakhstan, where lots of Germans had been deported, German was left as it was.

good job on that, quite interesting.

[robertemmett]

The Second World War was, needless to say, a blinding disgrace. The Nazi concentration and extermination camps, the barbarism of the advancing Red Army, the horrendous bombings carried out by the Allies (such as Dresden and Tokyo) and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were all as bad as each other.


well would you not consider that the expansion foreign policy of a fascist regime was reason enough for the war to begin? britain and frane should have went to war in 1936 to stop Hitler.

the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil, to sap the will of the nazi to continue their war of agression across europe.

i would strongly condem the allies for their blind ignorance of the holocuast. they know from early 42 what was happening. the USA even bombed the IG Fabern Chemical factory INSIDE the Aushwitz complex and DIDNT bomb the gas chambers. even though their recon photos clearly showed the activites there

[eghzarw]

well would you not consider that the expansion foreign policy of a fascist regime was reason enough for the war to begin? britain and frane should have went to war in 1936 to stop Hitler.


It was interesting to read in quite a few journals/letters from USSR during the war that there was (among those who understood something in international politics) a constant fear that some of the Allies would go for a separate peace treaty with Germany and leave USSR alone. I wouldn't wonder if the Allies suspected Stalin of the same intention.

[Nationalrevolutionär]

the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil, to sap the will of the nazi to continue their war of agression across europe.

The allies attacked Dresden 3 month before the war ended. To this time Nazi Germany was beaten! At every front the german troops were on backfall. The allies had full sovereignty over the airspace. In Dresden there was no military-related facilities and the citiy was full of refugees from the east of Germany. There were also a lot hospital with wounded soldiers. Dresden had no antiaircraft because it wasn't a important target for the allied air force. Dresden had a big goods station but the rails and the station were just lightly damaged because the bombers just attacked the residentials.
The first echelon attacked Dresden with explosive bombs to destroys the housetops. Then the second echelon threw fire bombs on Dresden. The third echelon attacked once again with explosive bombs to avoid the firefighting. They also attacked with low-flying planes civilians who tried to escape this fire-hell on the bank of the Elbe (river through Dresden).

[eghzarw]

The allies attacked Dresden 3 month before the war ended. To this time Nazi Germany was beaten! At every front the german troops were on backfall. The allies had full sovereignty over the airspace. In Dresden there was no military-related facilities and the citiy was full of refugees from the east of Germany. There were also a lot hospital with wounded soldiers. Dresden had no antiaircraft because it wasn't a important target for the allied air force. Dresden had a big goods station but the rails and the station were just lightly damaged because the bombers just attacked the residentials.
The first echelon attacked Dresden with explosive bombs to destroys the housetops. Then the second echelon threw fire bombs on Dresden. The third echelon attacked once again with explosive bombs to avoid the firefighting. They also attacked with low-flying planes civilians who tried to escape this fire-hell on the bank of the Elbe (river through Dresden).

I have read some witness accounts by civilians who had survived the fire-bombing of Dresden. 'Hell' is too mild a word to describe it. The temperature on the streets was next to melting point...

[robertemmett]

yip, and it was also a major contributor to the nazi war effort, even in the last days. with over 110 factories contributing loads of material useful in the war, including anti aircraft guns. the factories employed up to 50,000 workers too.

[Nationalrevolutionär]

Today 65 years ago, Sophie Scholl, member of the "White Rose" was mudered!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fe_Rose

[wherenow]

Ba laoch i.

She and the other brave students in Munich are still remembered today. They were true German WW2 heroes.

[Nijinsky]

robertemmett: the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil

Nope - it was an appalling and sickening War Crime for which no-one has ever been brought to justice. In fact it must go down as one of the worst War Crimes in History

[Hessian Peel]

well would you not consider that the expansion foreign policy of a fascist regime was reason enough for the war to begin? britain and frane should have went to war in 1936 to stop Hitler.

Both Britain and France were expansionist and imperialistic states. They only went to war when their interests were threatened; not to save smaller nations from the clutches of the Third Reich.

the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil, to sap the will of the nazi to continue their war of agression across europe.

It was a barbaric act of terrorism against civilians. It is inexcusable in any context.

i would strongly condem the allies for their blind ignorance of the holocuast. they know from early 42 what was happening. the USA even bombed the IG Fabern Chemical factory INSIDE the Aushwitz complex and DIDNT bomb the gas chambers. even though their recon photos clearly showed the activites there

You're presupposing they actually cared. Human life is meaningless to capitalists.

[Sceptical]

Movies are of course a strong weapon in the study of history :icon_lol:

It's no laughing matter they are. Movies have a profound impact on forming people's attitudes to historical events. They reach a far wider audience than any history book will ever. Because most movies(even documentaries) on WWII are still written from a good vs evil point of view most people's understanding of WWII will not go any further than such simplistic black and white good vs evil interpretations.

[eghzarw]

It's no laughing matter they are. Movies have a profound impact on forming people's attitudes to historical events. They reach a far wider audience than any history book will ever. Because most movies(even documentaries) on WWII are still written from a good vs evil point of view most people's understanding of WWII will not go any further than such simplistic black and white good vs evil interpretations.

How true. And whenever a movie appears that doesn't depict the events in just black and white, the popular culture consumer just ignores it and goes on with the comic-strip image of history.

[Sceptical]

How true. And whenever a movie appears that doesn't depict the events in just black and white, the popular culture consumer just ignores it and goes on with the comic-strip image of history.

Indeed but its not just the uninterested kids in the cinema. I would argue that the questioning of Ireland's neutrality during WWII and the accusations of moral cowardice that come with them are directly related to people getting their opinions from hollywood blockbusters rather than reality. This would extend to historians and politicians and if true could have profound ramifications, not only on how Irish people view themselves but on what policies are decided on in the future.

[eghzarw]

Indeed but its not just the uninterested kids in the cinema. I would argue that the questioning of Ireland's neutrality during WWII and the accusations of moral cowardice that come with them are directly related to people getting their opinions from hollywood blockbusters rather than reality. This would extend to historians and politicians and if true could have profound ramifications, not only on how Irish people view themselves but on what policies are decided on in the future.

Yeah, and not necessarily blockbusters. A well-publicised (and -biased) documentary shown on national television at a good watchable hour can do wonders to people's "perception" of this or that event.

The effect is particularly curious when the films are about events people had witnessed themselves -- they may often accept the filmmakers' view over their own perceptions and memories.

[ciaranxavier]

lol as far as the movie world goes america was the beginning and the end to the war.

[southarmaghceltic1888]

There is no denying America played a crucial part in the war. England was being blown to hell by the Nazis. It was only a matter of time before it was invaded. Even Hitler was furious at Pearl Harbor which brought us into the war. Every Allied country played their part though. The Russians pummeled the Germans on the East and took Berlin. But the Americans and British fought in the steamy jungles of the South Pacific. One thing i think has gotten not enough attention in history is the Norwegian resistance. They were by far the most effective, more so than the French which has played out to be more than it really was.

[Hessian Peel]

The Russians pummeled the Germans on the East and took Berlin.

It's a pity they stopped there....

[mickyk200]

Blame the allies...
they conquered west Germany. Then those pesky Americans wouldn't get out of Berlin...Damn them and their infernal airlift!!

[Hessian Peel]

Blame the allies...
they conquered west Germany. Then those pesky Americans wouldn't get out of Berlin...Damn them and their infernal airlift!!

The Soviets agreed to stall their advance in Poland.

They could have met the Western Allies in Belgium or the Netherlands just as easily.

[garrettDA]

There is no denying America played a crucial part in the war. England was being blown to hell by the Nazis. It was only a matter of time before it was invaded. Even Hitler was furious at Pearl Harbor which brought us into the war. Every Allied country played their part though. The Russians pummeled the Germans on the East and took Berlin. But the Americans and British fought in the steamy jungles of the South Pacific. One thing i think has gotten not enough attention in history is the Norwegian resistance. They were by far the most effective, more so than the French which has played out to be more than it really was.
the Canadians also played a major part in Norway.

I think you can credit the end of the war to Hitlers idiocy.

[ciaranxavier]

There is no denying America played a crucial part in the war. England was being blown to hell by the Nazis. It was only a matter of time before it was invaded. Even Hitler was furious at Pearl Harbor which brought us into the war. Every Allied country played their part though. The Russians pummeled the Germans on the East and took Berlin. But the Americans and British fought in the steamy jungles of the South Pacific. One thing i think has gotten not enough attention in history is the Norwegian resistance. They were by far the most effective, more so than the French which has played out to be more than it really was.

last i heard you said america won the war.

[lambhdeargh]

yip, and it was also a major contributor to the nazi war effort, even in the last days. with over 110 factories contributing loads of material useful in the war, including anti aircraft guns. the factories employed up to 50,000 workers too.

Actually you are wrong, Dresden was never a target throughout the entire war, except in the final days when Arthur Bomber Harris sought the need to prove his philosophy of the Area Boming Campaign. Also the other reasons were more simple, the Russian High Command asked for the bombing of Dresden to hinder retreating German forces from removing themselves from their wrath, albeit under the guise that it was a major arterial route for these said German forces.

[lambhdeargh]

well would you not consider that the expansion foreign policy of a fascist regime was reason enough for the war to begin? britain and frane should have went to war in 1936 to stop Hitler.

the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil, to sap the will of the nazi to continue their war of agression across europe.

i would strongly condem the allies for their blind ignorance of the holocuast. they know from early 42 what was happening. the USA even bombed the IG Fabern Chemical factory INSIDE the Aushwitz complex and DIDNT bomb the gas chambers. even though their recon photos clearly showed the activites there

So Britain and France were exempt from expansionism? Only the dreaded Nazis were to be stopped? If German Generals had their way, and they knew war was on the cards(after all they asked Hitler to postpone any hostilities until the earliest 1941 or the latest 1942) they would have romped across Europe and Russia much more decisively, than the were to do thanks to the administrations of Herr Hitler. Mind you futher bloodshed was to be spilt in the crumbling of these two erstwile empires thanks in part to the premature start of WWII.

[lambhdeargh]

well would you not consider that the expansion foreign policy of a fascist regime was reason enough for the war to begin? britain and frane should have went to war in 1936 to stop Hitler.

the firebombing of dresden was a necessary evil, to sap the will of the nazi to continue their war of agression across europe.

i would strongly condem the allies for their blind ignorance of the holocuast. they know from early 42 what was happening. the USA even bombed the IG Fabern Chemical factory INSIDE the Aushwitz complex and DIDNT bomb the gas chambers. even though their recon photos clearly showed the activites there

The Soviets agreed to stall their advance in Poland.

They could have met the Western Allies in Belgium or the Netherlands just as easily.

I think you are deluding yourself, As far as the Soviet Union was concerned the race was on as regards Berlin. The reasons regarding the halting at Poland were twofold, firstly the popular uprising, which the Soviets allowed the German forces to supress, causing the Russians to ultimately expend less resources in this area than otherwise would have been needed and the fact that even the vast Soviet War Machine needed to regroup its forces. In fact it was the Allies who stopped and not the Russians, as any futher advances along their lines would have been reluctantly ceeded to the allies, even under the threat of futher hostilities.