'Checkpoints expose policing lies' - 32CSM

[Hildy]

Derry Journal (http://www.derryjournal.com/politics/39Checkpoints-expose-policing-lies39-.3755838.jp)
By Staff reporter
08 February 2008

Hardline republicans in Derry say increased security measures in the city in the last 48 hours "expose the lie" that policing has changed.

The 32 County Sovereignty Movement in Derry say several of their members have been “harassed” since police patrols were stepped up.

A spokesperson for the group locally insists the increase in PSNI patrols is part of a plan to criminalise republicans.

“Since Tuesday night the RUC/PSNI have been harassing republicans all over the city. We continually hear about the so-called new beginning to policing but all we see is the same old RUC and the same old tactics. It exposes the lie that policing in the Six Counties has changed. It makes a mockery of normalisation process that we are told about. What is normal about getting stopped by the police everywhere you go?” the spokesperson asked.

The spokesperson also claimed five members of the 32 CSM were stopped and questioned at a vehicle checkpoint in Bishop Street on Wednesday. “The police were carrying out house raids in the Bishop Street area and we were going along to see what was happening and the RUC/PSNI ordered five of our members out of car and searched and questioned them under anti-terror legislation,” he said.

The 32CSM representative claimed the widespread nature of the PSNI’s operations suggests a lack of intelligence about republicans. “These checkpoints and operations were carried out in Derry, Coleraine, Strabane and all across the North West. To us this would suggest a lack of intelligence,” he said.

oh, and this wouldn't have anything to do with the RIRA releasing threats and statements targeting certain individuals for assisination, or threats of shooting and killing the police, now would it?

I think this was the plan all along, it has nothing to do with de-criminalization, it had to do with taunting the police through the media to do exactly what they are doing. Clever plan! It worked, now the police can take the blame! Sheer brilliance. Too bad most people see through the sham that it is! The RIRA threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!

[ardonian]

In case you cant read the IRA gave the interview. The 32csm issued a statement on the ongoing harassment of there members in Derry. So you are saying the harassment of republicans is ok because of the interview.

[quirk]

Blame the resistance or the occupation.

[Hildy]

In case you cant read the IRA gave the interview. The 32csm issued a statement on the ongoing harassment of there members in Derry. So you are saying the harassment of republicans is ok because of the interview.


ardonian, where does it say the IRA gave the interview? Why would the 32CSM issued a statement for the IRA? You're the one that has trouble reading, it was the Reals that gave the interview! And you know that!

Why does the 32CSM think they have the authority to issue statements for an illegal organization and they aren't even a bonafide political party by a 'political organization' tied to another illegal (so-called) 'army', considered to be an FTO? What constituency are the speaking for anyway? Themselves and the RIRA? That's all. Who are their supporters anyway? Who 'voted' them to speak on behalf of Republicans?

It's obvious to all what is going on here, and releasing these kind of statements tells me that its all a ruse to get the police to do exactly what they are doing! It worked, so aren't ye just happy about that? You and your group can take all the credit. Aren't ye proud!:icon_wink:

[ardonian]

I don't think you get what i was saying but then again I'm not surprised your anti republicanism has obvoisly blinded you.And yes i am proud 100%

[Hildy]

No I didn't. And you determine who is anti-republican? Well that explains a lot!

[ardonian]

No your actions and talk determine that.

[Hildy]

I don't have to prove anything to you ardonian, mo chara. I am confident in my views and where my support lies. And just because I feel your organization and its ties to the RIRA are a blemish on the face of republicanism should not bother you at all. In case you haven't noticed, the Republican movement has moved on from 'war' to peace. You are living in the past with your call to 'war'. Anyone that condones the killing of fellow Republicans are the ones that are anti-republican, not me. So we obviously disagree on that point, that's not surprising. So keep peddling this tripe, there are those that will buy it. I won't!

Cheers, Hildy:biggrin:

[quirk]

oh, and this wouldn't have anything to do with the RIRA releasing threats and statements targeting certain individuals for assisination, or threats of shooting and killing the police, now would it?

Of course it hasn't to do with this at least not directly. Do you think they would put on an operation of this magnitude because of an interview. I would also think that this operation was planned for some time before the interview was given.

What I mean above when I say not indirectly is I do think there is a link. The IRA gave the interview and expressed a new found confidence in itself. It has reorganised and hopefully rearmed. I think this is worrying the brits and was what brought the operation on their part not just the interview itself.

It's funny though that you are posting as a republican yet being an apologist for the Brits. Excusing such treatment of the nationalist and republican community in Newry.

Another thing which contradicts completely your claim that the operation was a direct result of the interview is the simple fact that all of those arrested during the week had no links to the 32CSM or RIRA. Not one of them. Neither were any of the properties raided linked to any members of the movement.

I think this was the plan all along, it has nothing to do with de-criminalization, it had to do with taunting the police through the media to do exactly what they are doing. Clever plan! It worked, now the police can take the blame! Sheer brilliance. Too bad most people see through the sham that it is! The RIRA threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!

WTF is de-criminalisation? Again your trying to excuse the events during the week and ignoring the facts in the process. None of the raids had anything to do with the RIRA so how do you draw the conclusion that they were a result of the interview. So doesn't look like there was any such plan all along except in your imagination.

Now you have disputed ardonians claims that you are anti republican but it is clearly evident in saying that the IRA "threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!"

Hildy a persons republicanism is not defined merely by them saying they are a republican but rather be them adhering to certain republican principles. I could claim im a Buddhist but it wouldn't make me so. The British occupation of this country is illegal. Resistance to it is justified. If someone invaded your own country would it be illegal to fight back? Would those who did so be labelled criminals by you? Of course they would (at least if you applied the same rules in that situation as you do to this).

Why does the 32CSM think they have the authority to issue statements for an illegal organization and they aren't even a bonafide political party by a 'political organization' tied to another illegal (so-called) 'army', considered to be an FTO? What constituency are the speaking for anyway? Themselves and the RIRA? That's all. Who are their supporters anyway? Who 'voted' them to speak on behalf of Republicans?

Your not making sense. The 32CSM does not issue statements on behalf of anyone other than themselves. The IRA is well capable of issuing its own statements.

I also take issue with you referring to the IRA as an illegal organisation. It is illegal under British law. Republicans don't recognise British laws legitimacy in Ireland. I dont think you really get the whole illegal occupation bit which makes me wonder as you say you are a republican.

Also before you start going on about who voted and electoral mandates take note of these wise words I will quote you:

"The IRA needs no electoral mandate. It derives its mandate from the presence of the British in the 6 counties"
Gerry Adams

Do you agree with Adams when he says this?

Now I have a question which I asked you on another thread and of course you dodged but I will try again. You are the one saying I use rhetoric yet if you cant back up what you say I think your the one who fits that bill. So heres my question again:

Why are the RIRA not an army?

If you are unable to answer this then stop talking crap.

It's obvious to all what is going on here, and releasing these kind of statements tells me that its all a ruse to get the police to do exactly what they are doing! It worked, so aren't ye just happy about that? You and your group can take all the credit. Aren't ye proud!

Again B.S. You are ignoring the facts of what group was subject of the raids. But as I said on another thread recently you have been twisting the facts to suit what you are saying rather than examining the facts then making a conclusion.

[scarface]

oh, and this wouldn't have anything to do with the RIRA releasing threats and statements targeting certain individuals for assisination, or threats of shooting and killing the police, now would it?

I think this was the plan all along, it has nothing to do with de-criminalization, it had to do with taunting the police through the media to do exactly what they are doing. Clever plan! It worked, now the police can take the blame! Sheer brilliance. Too bad most people see through the sham that it is! The RIRA threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!

so Republicans are to blame for the actions of the RUC?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

oh, and this wouldn't have anything to do with the RIRA releasing threats and statements targeting certain individuals for assisination, or threats of shooting and killing the police, now would it?

I think this was the plan all along, it has nothing to do with de-criminalization, it had to do with taunting the police through the media to do exactly what they are doing. Clever plan! It worked, now the police can take the blame! Sheer brilliance. Too bad most people see through the sham that it is! The RIRA threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!


Since when was it wrong for a Republican to be opposed to the British colonial militia? When did it become criminal to kill a soldier or militiaman of the occupation? Was it when Sir Gerry said so?

[East Tyrone]

The police checkpoints expose the lie of the RIRA paper offensive. If they were serious about carrying out attacks they would have done so already; when the cops presented them with hundreds of targets. This also exposes the lie that the RIRA have reorganised and changed. Their miniscule credibility is utterly redundant now that they have been called out like the wee lad who cried "wolf". They really are a pathetic joke being perpetrated on the Irish people for the sake of British and Unionist strategic interests.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

I don't have to prove anything to you ardonian, mo chara. I am confident in my views and where my support lies. And just because I feel your organization and its ties to the RIRA are a blemish on the face of republicanism should not bother you at all. In case you haven't noticed, the Republican movement has moved on from 'war' to peace. You are living in the past with your call to 'war'. Anyone that condones the killing of fellow Republicans are the ones that are anti-republican, not me. So we obviously disagree on that point, that's not surprising. So keep peddling this tripe, there are those that will buy it. I won't!

Cheers, Hildy:biggrin:


The Adams Faction has moved from war to sell-out capitulation, the Republican Movement remains faithfully committed to absolute opposition to the British occupation, violent if necessary, and will remain so until every last British soldier and official carts his arse back to his own country.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

The police checkpoints expose the lie of the RIRA paper offensive. If they were serious about carrying out attacks they would have done so already; when the cops presented them with hundreds of targets. This also exposes the lie that the RIRA have reorganised and changed. Their miniscule credibility is utterly redundant now that they have been called out like the wee lad who cried "wolf". They really are a pathetic joke being perpetrated on the Irish people for the sake of British and Unionist strategic interests.


I thought you'd be one of these people who is inclined to believe the rubbish about the British not having any "strategic or seflish interests" in the stolen six.

[East Tyrone]

I thought you'd be one of these people who is inclined to believe the rubbish about the British not having any "strategic or seflish interests" in the stolen six.

I don't believe in fairy tales like that or "we didn't bomb Omagh" or "we're a serious militant organisation dedicated to attacking the Brits".

[East Tyrone]

The Adams Faction has moved from war to sell-out capitulation, the Republican Movement remains faithfully committed to absolute opposition to the British occupation, violent if necessary, and will remain so until every last British soldier and official carts his arse back to his own country.

Global warming has significantly lessened the possibilty of hell freezing over and that was always more likely than a legitimate and successful RIRA campaign.

[ardonian]

Well if you and your cohorts dismiss it so much then why are you so concerned

[East Tyrone]

Well if you and your cohorts dismiss it so much then why are you so concerned

Nobody likes having a practical joke played on them; particularly when the joke is a pathetic joke at the expense of the Irish nation. The joke in question being the RIRA paper guerillas and their paper campaign.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Nobody likes having a practical joke played on them; particularly when the joke is a pathetic joke at the expense of the Irish nation. The joke in question being the RIRA paper guerillas and their paper campaign.


What is your obsession with paper all about?

[Hildy]

quirk, mo chara, you can try all you like to try and make me out to be anti-republican, I really don't care. Like I said to yer friend ardonian, I don't have anything to prove to either of you. So make all the outlandish statements you like. It bothers me not! I know who I support and SF is still the best example of Republicanism that I've seen so far. The majority of the people feel the same way, obviously! So keep up your little campaign of trying to discredit us 'shinners', but it won't work.

The majority of members on this board are 'shinners' and even though they may not be as vocal as me, East Tyrone, Seabird, etc., I couldn't say why! But that doesn't mean that we are the only ones that feel what the RIRA is doing is wrong, and the 32CSM supporting them makes us feel that you are wrong as well. You may not like it, and you can protest and double talk all you want, but the majority feel that way. And you being a mod on here might make a difference to some of them stating that fact, but it makes no difference to me. As a matter of fact, I feel you have opened yourself up to more scrutiny than any other because you are a mod, and you certainly show no neutrality when it comes to others beliefs.

Just because you say that the RIRA's interview had nothing to do with the accelerated presence of the police is outright laughable! You know it has EVERYTHING to do with that. The "Police" have even said so, so don't be so patronizing of my belief that that is so. And yes I believe Police WOULD put these deterrents is place if an "illegal" organization (in their view) was threatening to kill them and assasinate other political leaders. If you don't think that would bring the "hammer" down you are seriously delusional.

And I'm not being an 'apologist' for the brits, I am in alignment with SF's peace policies and mandates! That is to say, "to make politics work, to deliver radical positive social and economic change and to bring us closer to Irish Unity." They are against violence, and are campaigning for peace. This is what the majority of the citizens in the North want! This is not something they just decided to try. It has to do with Human Rights, quirk, in case your organization is missing that little detail. It has to do with no more killing, no more bombs, no more violence! So try and discredit their hard work, and make it look like the 'shinners' are sitting on their duffs criticizing yer "little army" if it makes you feel better. But I'd rather support a party that is doing the hard work and listening to the people, than give credit to your group that is doing nothing but issuing threats to innocent people! These are the facts whether you like it or not!

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Global warming has significantly lessened the possibilty of hell freezing over and that was always more likely than a legitimate and successful RIRA campaign.


I wasn't talking about the RIRA, I was talking about the Republican Movement. The fact that the Adams Faction thinks that the idea of armed struggle is just so uncool and uncouth and off-message, and just soooo uncivilized man; doesn't mean that Republicans share those sentiments.

[ardonian]

Threats to who? Hildy

[East Tyrone]

What is your obsession with paper all about?
The RIRA have thus far only conducted their tit offensive in the newspapers, plus it's a take off of Mao's paper tiger. The RIRA are more toiletpaper tigers though.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"So keep up your little campaign of trying to discredit us 'shinners', but it won't work."

Your lot don't need to be discredited by anyone itself for the simple fact that you're very good at doing it for yourselves. Why did you put the word "police" in quotation marks, I thought your lot were all in favour of the colonial militia, isn't that right?

"And I'm not being an 'apologist' for the brits, I am in alignment with SF's peace policies and mandates!"

Then you're an apologist for the occupation, sorry mate, but it's not good for you to delude yourself like that.

[East Tyrone]

I wasn't talking about the RIRA, I was talking about the Republican Movement. The fact that the Adams Faction thinks that the idea of armed struggle is just so uncool and uncouth and off-message, and just soooo uncivilized man; doesn't mean that Republicans share those sentiments.
Sure Gerry Adams is the leader of the Republican Movement; I don't know who you're talking about.

[Hildy]

Threats to who? Hildy

Yer good at playing dumb! You must do it alot! To Martin McGuinness for starters!

[Irish Republican Patriot]

No, Sir Gerry Adams, Lord Adams of Ballymurphy, faithful and loyal servant of Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is not the leader of the Republican Movement. He is the "leader" of the worst gang of anti-Republicans and liars and charlatans in Irish history. His party is nothing but a nest of vipers, a British spy outfit from top to bottom.

[Koneko]

No, Sir Gerry Adams, Lord Adams of Ballymurphy, faithful and loyal servant of Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is not the leader of the Republican Movement. He is the "leader" of the worst gang of anti-Republicans and liars and charlatans in Irish history. His party is nothing but a nest of vipers, a British spy outfit from top to outfit.


did you happen to read the new rules? do you have proof of these accusations mate? i think you should retract these statements unless you have proof.

[on_remand]

hildy,

"This is what the majority of the citizens in the North want!"

so what you're saying is that whatever the majority of citizens in the north want, then that's it, let it be??

if that's the case then, do the majority of citizens in the north want a united ireland or rather be part of britain? can you answer that?

[Hildy]

hildy,

"This is what the majority of the citizens in the North want!"

so what you're saying is that whatever the majority of citizens in the north want, then that's it, let it be??

if that's the case then, do the majority of citizens in the north want a united ireland or rather be part of britain? can you answer that?

on_remand, a chara, Of course I can, they want a United Ireland, like you do, I do, and obviously every Republican wants. That's what they've fought for the past 800 years. But they also want to attain it peacefully. Is that so hard to understand? Just because there are a minority of trigger-happy wanna-be revolutionaries out there that feel another 'armed struggle' is the way, doesn't make it right!

[Foyleview]

oh, and this wouldn't have anything to do with the RIRA releasing threats and statements targeting certain individuals for assisination, or threats of shooting and killing the police, now would it?

I think this was the plan all along, it has nothing to do with de-criminalization, it had to do with taunting the police through the media to do exactly what they are doing. Clever plan! It worked, now the police can take the blame! Sheer brilliance. Too bad most people see through the sham that it is! The RIRA threatening to kill ANYONE is criminal in my opinion!

:bow::bow::bow: Well said a chara...

[Rory O'Connor]

The RIRA have thus far only conducted their tit offensive in the newspapers, plus it's a take off of Mao's paper tiger. The RIRA are more toiletpaper tigers though.

If Óglaigh na hÉireann are so unimportant then why does Sinn Féin discuss them in almost all of their interviews/statements and why has the RUC/PSNI said that they are going to be "stepping up operations across Northern Ireland to disrupt dissident republicans?"

[Foyleview]

I don't think you get what i was saying but then again I'm not surprised your anti republicanism has obvoisly blinded you.And yes i am proud 100%
rubbish these people are not republicans.
Happy slappers would probably be a more accurate description of these people.
anti happy slapper now thats better

[on_remand]

on_remand, a chara, Of course I can, they want a United Ireland, like you do, I do, and obviously every Republican wants. That's what they've fought for the past 800 years. But they also want to attain it peacefully. Is that so hard to understand? Just because there are a minority of trigger-happy wanna-be revolutionaries out there that feel another 'armed struggle' is the way, doesn't make it right!

i maybe wrong here, but how do you know that the majority of the population of the 6 counties want a united ireland?

[Rory O'Connor]

rubbish these people are not republicans.
Happy slappers would probably be a more accurate description of these people.
anti happy slapper now thats better

Why is Óglaigh na hÉireann not a republican army, in your opinion? Did they breach the IRA's constitution or did they compromise their republican principles in any way?

[Foyleview]

"So keep up your little campaign of trying to discredit us 'shinners', but it won't work."

Your lot don't need to be discredited by anyone itself for the simple fact that you're very good at doing it for yourselves. Why did you put the word "police" in quotation marks, I thought your lot were all in favour of the colonial militia, isn't that right?

"And I'm not being an 'apologist' for the brits, I am in alignment with SF's peace policies and mandates!"

Then you're an apologist for the occupation, sorry mate, but it's not good for you to delude yourself like that.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
now who does that leave as your buddies..?

[Hildy]

:bow::bow::bow: Well said a chara...


Thanks Foyleview! I appreciate your comments. I'm glad you have the nerve to stand up and agree! It was insinuated that if the 'shinners' on this board didn't have anyone agreeing with them, then they were not credible! LOL, figure that one out!

No, Sir Gerry Adams, Lord Adams of Ballymurphy, faithful and loyal servant of Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is not the leader of the Republican Movement. He is the "leader" of the worst gang of anti-Republicans and liars and charlatans in Irish history. His party is nothing but a nest of vipers, a British spy outfit from top to outfit.

I'd like to know why this member can get away with saying stuff like this all the time? Only certain members have to comply with the rules on this forum, but this guy can continue to make inflammatory remarks like this all the time? And it not just hear, it is on every thread! So he doesn't agree with SF politics, but the call GA a liar, nest of vipers, brit spy, I thought that was against forum rules!

He is nothing more than a troublemaker and I hope the mods will do something!:whip:

[East Tyrone]

If Óglaigh na hÉireann are so unimportant then why does Sinn Féin discuss them in almost all of their interviews/statements and why has the RUC/PSNI said that they are going to be "stepping up operations across Northern Ireland to disrupt dissident republicans?"

The establishment are in on the joke where the tit offensive is concerned; that's why they're doing their best to lend credibility to the RIRA paper-army council's statement by sending out the peelers to make the RIRA appear dangerous to the public. The RIRA mustn't actually be allowed to attack them outside of the newspapers at the present time.
Sinn Féin can see the joke and are just trying to stop people from being conned. The RIRA are crying "wolf" and Sinn Féin are exposing the paper emporer's bare-arsed nakedness.

[Rory O'Connor]

It's obvious that you will lie to discredit Óglaigh na hÉireann, so I'm not even going to debate with you because your lies are just attempts to annoy anyone who supports them.

[Hildy]

i maybe wrong here, but how do you know that the majority of the population of the 6 counties want a united ireland?


Well if you are counting unionists/loyalists then my statement is not correct. Of course, I don't think along those lines. So I stand corrected, mo chara.

However, I think you and I both know that I was referring to the majority of the nationalist/Republican communities, as that is all SF is concerned with, is what they want. I don't think SF really cares what the unionist/loyalists want! :rolleyes:

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"Sinn Féin can see the joke and are just trying to stop people from being conned."

Though they apparently can't see the joke in believing that a United Ireland can be achieved by participating in British administration of the occupied part of this island and in the persecution of Republicans. They are the con-artists (bloody good ones as well). The joke is on them really.

[Foyleview]

Why is Óglaigh na hÉireann not a republican army, in your opinion? Did they breach the IRA's constitution or did they compromise their republican principles in any way?

Now , you well know what i am saying.
there is only one Irish Republican Army. they are stood own and have decomissioned. Honourable and loyal soldiers.
The happy slappers are the no hope brigade who go around threatening everyone, have the ambition to get more checkpoints with there prefered choice of the british army controling them .

[East Tyrone]

It's obvious that you will lie to discredit Óglaigh na hÉireann, so I'm not even going to debate with you because your lies are just attempts to annoy anyone who supports them.

No what your saying is that you cannot debate with me because you know that the lie of the RIRA's tit offensive discredits Republicanism in general. They have reduced militant Republicanism to a pathetic soap opera conducted in the newspapers.

[on_remand]

Well if you are counting unionists/loyalists then my statement is not correct. Of course, I don't think along those lines. So I stand corrected, mo chara.

However, I think you and I both know that I was referring to the majority of the nationalist/Republican communities, as that is all SF is concerned with, is what they want. I don't think SF really cares what the unionist/loyalists want! :rolleyes:

so the minority of people in the 6 counties want a united ireland, and the minority of republicans want to combat in an armed struggle. are you not contradcting yourself when you use the word "majortity"?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"I'd like to know why this member can get away with saying stuff like this all the time? Only certain members have to comply with the rules on this forum, but this guy can continue to make inflammatory remarks like this all the time? And it not just hear, it is on every thread! So he doesn't agree with SF politics, but the call GA a liar, nest of vipers, brit spy, I thought that was against forum rules!"

Why don't you have a word with your mate ET who just loves to slander men like Ruairi O'Bradaigh? Or is it only a problem when Sir Gerry is the poor wee victims. Your lot are good at sticking together anyway.

[ardonian]

Hildy its pretty obvious your not a PSF member just a ceasefire supporting pacifist with a anti republican agenda so good luck on you in spreading your every thing is fine and dandy rhetoric to occupied nations around the world may the good lord look down on you on your crusade.

[East Tyrone]

"Sinn Féin can see the joke and are just trying to stop people from being conned."

Though they apparently can't see the joke in believing that a United Ireland can be achieved by participating in British administration of the occupied part of this island and in the persecution of Republicans. They are the con-artists (bloody good ones as well). The joke is on them really.

Democratic constitutionalism will deliver unity; anybody who suggests otherwise is taking the p*ss.

[Hildy]

so the minority of people in the 6 counties want a united ireland, and the minority of republicans want to combat in an armed struggle. are you not contradcting yourself when you use the word "majortity"?


Oh, get off it! Go play these games with someone else that has time to waste. I stand by my statement that the majority of Republicans want a UI through peaceful means. So feck off!:whip:

[on_remand]

what i'm trying to point out is that, can the minority not be right?

[Rory O'Connor]

Now , you well know what i am saying.
there is only one Irish Republican Army. they are stood own and have decomissioned. Honourable and loyal soldiers.
The happy slappers are the no hope brigade who go around threatening everyone, have the ambition to get more checkpoints with there prefered choice of the british army controling them .

The "Provisional faction" breached the IRA's constitution when they accepted the Mitchell Principles; they expelled themselves from Óglaigh na hÉireann. The army that you refer to as "the happy slappers" are the genuine republicans that remained as volunteers within Óglaigh na hÉireann.

You also said "rubbish these people are not republicans." I am curious to know what prevents Óglaigh na hÉireann from being a republican army.

[Hildy]

Why don't you have a word with your mate ET who just loves to slander men like Ruairi O'Bradaigh? Or is it only a problem when Sir Gerry is the poor wee victims. Your lot are good at sticking together anyway.


Yeah, well East Tyrone was 'banned' for not following the rules, so why is it you are still here?

[on_remand]

Oh, get off it! Go play these games with someone else that has time to waste. I stand by my statement that the majority of Republicans want a UI through peaceful means. So feck off!:whip:

:icon_laugh: good one (!).

[Foyleview]

what i'm trying to point out is that, can the minority not be right?

Said like a true emmon de vilera supporter. " the people have no right to do wrong " ex sinn fein leader very like our pal ruairai

[Irish Republican Patriot]

"You also said "rubbish these people are not republicans." I am curious to know what prevents Óglaigh na hÉireann from being a republican army."

Mairtin, it is a well-established "fact" that it only those who agree with Sir Gerry's verbal horse manure are Republicans. That's his no. 1 rule and we all must agree with it like good wee schoolchildren.

[on_remand]

Said like a true emmon de vilera supporter. " the people have no right to do wrong " ex sinn fein leader very like our pal ruairai

so?? what's the point here?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Said like a true emmon de vilera supporter. " the people have no right to do wrong " ex sinn fein leader very like our pal ruairai


Eamonn de Valera did more in his life for Republicanism than Sir Gerry has ever done, and that's saying something.

[ardonian]

Foyleview how do you expect anyone never mind a republican to take you serious after your comment "if you have any information on republicans id urge you to report it to the RUC or guards"Christ sake be real your no more a republican than SIR HUGH

[on_remand]

Foyleview,

just because you dont agree with what i said, doesnt mean you can try and i do mean try to use a "personal" insult, cause i take it thats what it was. very baffling.

[scarface]

Democratic constitutionalism will deliver unity; anybody who suggests otherwise is taking the p*ss.


'Democratic constitutionalism' as you put it will deliever what it has always delivered and that is nothing

[Foyleview]

so?? what's the point here?

just pointing out that what you said about majorities being wrong is very simular to mr emmon de vilera s opinion. it s just occured to me , you may not know who he was ???

[Foyleview]

Democratic constitutionalism will deliver unity; anybody who suggests otherwise is taking the p*ss.

was so good . i had to have it posted twice.

[scarface]

Said like a true emmon de vilera supporter. " the people have no right to do wrong " ex sinn fein leader very like our pal ruairai

So the majority is always right? surely then by your strange logic the men and women of 1916 were wrong because the majority favoured home rule at the time

[Liam Lynch]

was so good . i had to have it posted twice.

If you read your history once you wouldn't have bothered posting it at all.

[on_remand]

just pointing out that what you said about majorities being wrong is very simular to mr emmon de vilera s opinion. it s just occured to me , you may not know who he was ???

ok, sorry, thought it was a dig or sumfink!

[Foyleview]

Foyleview how do you expect anyone never mind a republican to take you serious after your comment "if you have any information on republicans id urge you to report it to the RUC or guards"Christ sake be real your no more a republican than SIR HUGH

Thats not what i said.
I was asked if some one came into my place of work with a bomb, would i call the p s n i or the garda.
my answer was and is yes.
I also asked the questioner who critised me . if he had his lap top stollen or had a car accident or had his house broken into , would he ring the p s n i .
the answer was that he did not have a lap top or a car, and because he was such a big scarey guy nobody would dare break into his house.

[Foyleview]

Democratic constitutionalism will deliver unity; anybody who suggests otherwise is taking the p*ss.

E t . you are a popular man. for liam....

[ardonian]

Your a liar that was not what you said i will look it up and post it when i get a chance.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

was so good . i had to have it posted twice.


What's so good about it?

[Foyleview]

So the majority is always right? surely then by your strange logic the men and women of 1916 were wrong because the majority favoured home rule at the time

1916 happened primarily because home rule was denied. democracy did not work, people seen that they were never going to be treated fairly under british rule and as the LAST resort 1916 happened.

[scarface]

1916 happened primarily because home rule was denied. democracy did not work, people seen that they were never going to be treated fairly under british rule and as the LAST resort 1916 happened.

That's revisionism at it's worst the leaders of the 1916 rising didn't give a sh!t about home rule they had long been planning to attack the British it most certainly was not a last resort for them

[Irish Republican Patriot]

That's revisionism at it's worst the leaders of the 1916 rising didn't give a sh!t about home rule they had long been planning to attack the British it most certainly was not a last resort for them


Scarface, the truth is that the likes of Foyleview would have been the first to condemn the patriots of 1916, along with Redmond and Healy. The likes of Foyleview would have been falling over themselves to toady to their British masters so that the "jobs for the boys" would not be endangered, and they would have been howling about "micro groups" back then as well and all the rest of the ****e.

[East Tyrone]

'Democratic constitutionalism' as you put it will deliever what it has always delivered and that is nothing
The only thing that the contos have successfully delivered to date was the Omagh bomb. I'll take my chances with democratic constitutionalism, thanks all the same.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

The only thing that the contos have successfully delivered to date was the Omagh bomb. I'll take my chances with democratic constitutionalism, thanks all the same.


I seem to remember how yer man Sir Gerry use to have some VERY harsh words for "British constitutionality" which he later very conveniently forgot when he got tired of being outside of the British political arena.

[scarface]

The only thing that the contos have successfully delivered to date was the Omagh bomb.

Funny how you are willing to believe that part of the reals statement

[East Tyrone]

Funny how you are willing to believe that part of the reals statement

I don't see anything funny about how the cokes, contos and MI5 co-operated to conduct the biggest mass-murder of Irish people in living memory.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

I don't see anything funny about how the cokes, contos and MI5 co-operated to conduct the biggest mass-murder of Irish people in living memory.


Actually, that was the Dublin/Monaghan bombings of 1974 where 32 people were murdered by your good friends in MI5. Funny how you don't think of that, but are quick to jump on Omagh and exploit it for your arguments.

[Foyleview]

I don't see anything funny about how the cokes, contos and MI5 co-operated to conduct the biggest mass-murder of Irish people in living memory.
Nothing funny at all about that at all a chara. some people have a warped sence of humour.

[Foyleview]

Actually, that was the Dublin/Monaghan bombings of 1974 where 32 people were murdered by your good friends in MI5. Funny how you don't think of that, but are quick to jump on Omagh and exploit it for your arguments.
I think they are more buddies of yours as they share the same aim and common foe. maybe yous could goin up and both have a bash at Sinn Fein...sorry arnt you doing that already.?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

I think they are more buddies of yours as they share the same aim and common foe. maybe yous could goin up and both have a bash at Sinn Fein...sorry arnt you doing that already.?


I fail to see how Irish Republicans and MI5 "share the same aim and common foe". But why am I even responding to someone who thinks its a good thing for a Republican group to have British agents in it? Life's too short to have to deal with such idiocy.

[scarface]

Actually, that was the Dublin/Monaghan bombings of 1974 where 32 people were murdered by your good friends in MI5. Funny how you don't think of that, but are quick to jump on Omagh and exploit it for your arguments.

Damn right a chara but of course the revisionists don't want to talk about what their british friends and pay masters did to Irish people it's suits their agenda to say that Omagh was the biggest loss of life in living memory and it also suits their agenda to ignore the Dublin and Monaghan bombings

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Damn right a chara but of course the revisionists don't want to talk about what their british friends and pay masters did to Irish people it's suits their agenda to say that Omagh was the biggest loss of life in living memory and it also suits their agenda to ignore the Dublin and Monaghan bombings


We're all supposed to forgive and forget and join hands and sing "Kumbayah" in the name of an "Ireland of Equals".

[East Tyrone]

Actually, that was the Dublin/Monaghan bombings of 1974 where 32 people were murdered by your good friends in MI5. Funny how you don't think of that, but are quick to jump on Omagh and exploit it for your arguments.

Dublin/Monaghan, as the name would suggest, was more than one bomb. Omagh was a single bomb; made by the cokes, delivered by the contos and manipulated by the Brits. Dublin/Monaghan was very similar; in that infiltrated counter-gangs were manipulated into committing mass-murder of civilians by British intelligence.

[East Tyrone]

Damn right a chara but of course the revisionists don't want to talk about what their british friends and pay masters did to Irish people it's suits their agenda to say that Omagh was the biggest loss of life in living memory and it also suits their agenda to ignore the Dublin and Monaghan bombings

"Revisionists" with "British friends and paymasters", who is this provocative, personal attack directed at Scarface?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Dublin/Monaghan, as the name would suggest, was more than one bomb. Omagh was a single bomb; made by the cokes, delivered by the contos and manipulated by the Brits. Dublin/Monaghan was very similar; in that infiltrated counter-gangs were manipulated into committing mass-murder of civilians by British intelligence.


What difference does it make if it was more than one bomb? I fail to see how that is important. As for the UVF (the "counter-gang" I hope you are referring to - though I suppose it's not too much to expect that you seriously believe that it was actually "dissident" Republicans who were responsible), I hardly think they needed to be "manipulated" into doing it. But then again, that wouldn't suit your agenda of portraying "Loyalist" war criminals as wee poor victims of Britain either, now would it?

[Foyleview]

I fail to see how Irish Republicans and MI5 "share the same aim and common foe". But why am I even responding to someone who thinks its a good thing for a Republican group to have British agents in it? Life's too short to have to deal with such idiocy.

very wrong again!

[East Tyrone]

What difference does it make if it was more than one bomb? I fail to see how that is important. As for the UVF (the "counter-gang" I hope you are referring to - though I suppose it's not too much to expect that you seriously believe that it was actually "dissident" Republicans who were responsible), I hardly think they needed to be "manipulated" into doing it. But then again, that wouldn't suit your agenda of portraying "Loyalist" war criminals as wee poor victims of Britain either, now would it?
Ofcourse I'm talking about the UVF and as one who lost friends and extended family members at the hands of both them and RHC, I'm unlikely to portray them as anything less than the scum of the earth. I've seen their victims laid out in coffins; I hope you never have to. Don't presume to insult my integrity with anything less than contempt for the state-run Loyalist murder-gangs; they may have been under Brit direction, but they had to volunteer to do it.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

very wrong again!


In what way, Mr. Perfect?

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Ofcourse I'm talking about the UVF and as one who lost friends and extended family members at the hands of both them and RHC, I'm unlikely to portray them as anything less than the scum of the earth. I've seen their victims laid out in coffins; I hope you never have to. Don't presume to insult my integrity with anything less than contempt for the state-run Loyalist murder-gangs; they may have been under Brit direction, but they had to volunteer to do it.


It seems that for once we are in agreement.

[Hildy]

Mairtin, it is a well-established "fact" that it only those who agree with Sir Gerry's verbal horse manure are Republicans. That's his no. 1 rule and we all must agree with it like good wee schoolchildren.


Hey IRP, do you think perhaps you could learn how to use the quote buttons. If yer going to use the forum you should learn how to operate the controls. It makes it so much less confusing when replying back to you! Do you know how to drive? Its a lot easier, so I think you could handle it!

First of all, do you work for the crown? Have you knighted Gerry Adams or what? Because I don't think you have the authority to do that, Sir IRP! If and when Mr. Adams says something that I disagree with I will let you know, but in the meantime I have my own mind, and follow no rules, so you can stop with you facetious ramblings.

So run along now and do as the RIRA bids you, go get your AK47 and shoot those dirty evil bastards!;) Do they tell you when you can take a p*ss as well??:icon_lol:

[OCoinnigh]

"I'd like to know why this member can get away with saying stuff like this all the time? Only certain members have to comply with the rules on this forum, but this guy can continue to make inflammatory remarks like this all the time? And it not just hear, it is on every thread! So he doesn't agree with SF politics, but the call GA a liar, nest of vipers, brit spy, I thought that was against forum rules!"

Why don't you have a word with your mate ET who just loves to slander men like Ruairi O'Bradaigh? Or is it only a problem when Sir Gerry is the poor wee victims. Your lot are good at sticking together anyway.

I think this site was set up by SF, and you can say what ever you want as long as you don't slander Gerry Adams or SF. Which I've said before has no support in the south and will never bring a United Ireland.

[Carlos McJackle]

1916 happened primarily because home rule was denied. democracy did not work, people seen that they were never going to be treated fairly under british rule and as the LAST resort 1916 happened.


thats complete and utter dung .

the spark that lit 1916 was millions of happy cheering Irish people happily waving union jacks to welcome King George on his state visit . Thats what galvanised the authors of the rebellion ,Irish people happily accepting British rule and their place within the united kingdom , not economics or discrimination or anything of the sort . The decison to plan a rebellion was taken in America by the IRB and not Ireland , long before anyone even heard of home rule . Armed rebellion was the first and only resort on the agenda , no attempt was made to set up a political party or engage in electoralism whatsoever .

[Foyleview]

That's revisionism at it's worst the leaders of the 1916 rising didn't give a sh!t about home rule they had long been planning to attack the British it most certainly was not a last resort for them

Well a chara. this we will never know. my opinion is that if home rule had happened, there would have been no 1916.

[Foyleview]

Damn right a chara but of course the revisionists don't want to talk about what their british friends and pay masters did to Irish people it's suits their agenda to say that Omagh was the biggest loss of life in living memory and it also suits their agenda to ignore the Dublin and Monaghan bombings
Does that make you feel better ? knowing that you buddies atrosity was not the biggest.
do you know any of the familys of the Dublin Monaghan bombing ?
i do.
where you at the unvailing of the monument in dublin.?
I was
have you or do you partisipate in letter campeigns/petitions for justice for the Dublin Monaghan victims ?
I do
do you contribute financially towards this cause ?
I do.
i think the real paymaster s of the British securicrats are the people with the same agenda and goal. to wreck the peace process, defeat the Sinn fein movement and put british troups back on to the streets !

[Foyleview]

thats complete and utter dung .

the spark that lit 1916 was millions of happy cheering Irish people happily waving union jacks to welcome King George on his state visit . Thats what galvanised the authors of the rebellion ,Irish people happily accepting British rule and their place within the united kingdom , not economics or discrimination or anything of the sort . The decison to plan a rebellion was taken in America by the IRB and not Ireland , long before anyone even heard of home rule . Armed rebellion was the first and only resort on the agenda , no attempt was made to set up a political party or engage in electoralism whatsoever .

May be you should be campeigning for a visit by the English queen then.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

Well a chara. this we will never know. my opinion is that if home rule had happened, there would have been no 1916.


That's because you know feck all about history or Republicanism, so we'll leave at that, witless wonder.

[Irish Republican Patriot]

May be you should be campeigning for a visit by the English queen then.


We'd be better off leaving that to good natives such as yourself, who are only good for toadying to the British.

[quirk]

quirk, mo chara, you can try all you like to try and make me out to be anti-republican, I really don't care. Like I said to yer friend ardonian, I don't have anything to prove to either of you. So make all the outlandish statements you like. It bothers me not! I know who I support and SF is still the best example of Republicanism that I've seen so far. The majority of the people feel the same way, obviously! So keep up your little campaign of trying to discredit us 'shinners', but it won't work.

Im not saying your an anti republican but there is a big contradiction between your stated republican beliefs and some of the things you uphold such as your belief that resistance is criminal. Also Hildy my statements are not outlandish and I can back up anything I say, unlike you. Also SF are not the best example of republicanism. How can they be as the reject one of the key tenants of Irish Republicanism namely "the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland ... to be sovereign and indefeasible" Thats from the proclamation by the way and something which every republican should uphold. Also James Connolly said that the British "have no right in Ireland, never had and right in Ireland and never will have any right in Ireland." Suppose however this is just rhetoric to you. To me however it is at the heart of what my republicanism is based on.

I would also like you to show me where I have been trying to discredit 'shinners'. Show the threads.

The majority of members on this board are 'shinners' and even though they may not be as vocal as me, East Tyrone, Seabird, etc., I couldn't say why! But that doesn't mean that we are the only ones that feel what the RIRA is doing is wrong, and the 32CSM supporting them makes us feel that you are wrong as well. You may not like it, and you can protest and double talk all you want, but the majority feel that way.

In fact I have the greatest respect for Seabird and many other members and supporters of PSF on this board. They oppose us and I fully respect their right to do so. They do however back up everything they say and don't take opportunist positions in arguments just for the sake of it. Their opposition is based on strong beliefs. If they say something they will always attempt to back it up. Like for example if they said the RIRA was not an army I bet they would be able to give reasons for this and not keep avoiding it. I might not agree with their reasons but I would discuss it with them.

And you being a mod on here might make a difference to some of them stating that fact, but it makes no difference to me. As a matter of fact, I feel you have opened yourself up to more scrutiny than any other because you are a mod, and you certainly show no neutrality when it comes to others beliefs.

What does this mean. Have I ever said I am a mod so should be taken more serious. Your just making things up now. As for no neutrality to others beliefs do you think thats what mods should do? Do you think mellows should now say RSF 32CSM and PSF are all equal valid in their arguments? Each mod supports a particular goup so how do you think they can be neutral?

Just because you say that the RIRA's interview had nothing to do with the accelerated presence of the police is outright laughable! You know it has EVERYTHING to do with that. The "Police" have even said so, so don't be so patronizing of my belief that that is so. And yes I believe Police WOULD put these deterrents is place if an "illegal" organization (in their view) was threatening to kill them and assasinate other political leaders. If you don't think that would bring the "hammer" down you are seriously delusional.

The part I have hi lighted above is something you have just made up I think. Show me a source for this.

I gave reasons why I believed that this police operation was not directly linked to the interview. You have conveniently ignored all my points and just restated what you said before. Why if it was in relation to the RIRA was the operation targeted at another group? This is a simple question so try to answer it instead of just repeating that it is linked to the interview and those who dont believe that are delusional.

And I'm not being an 'apologist' for the brits, I am in alignment with SF's peace policies and mandates! That is to say, "to make politics work, to deliver radical positive social and economic change and to bring us closer to Irish Unity." They are against violence, and are campaigning for peace. This is what the majority of the citizens in the North want! This is not something they just decided to try. It has to do with Human Rights, quirk, in case your organization is missing that little detail. It has to do with no more killing, no more bombs, no more violence! So try and discredit their hard work, and make it look like the 'shinners' are sitting on their duffs criticizing yer "little army" if it makes you feel better. But I'd rather support a party that is doing the hard work and listening to the people, than give credit to your group that is doing nothing but issuing threats to innocent people! These are the facts whether you like it or not!

You were being an apologist for the Brits as you were trying to find excuses for their heavy handedness in Newry during the week. PSF have not done this so your not following their line on this issue.

Again you are trying to divert the argument away from what you said and trying to portray me as discrediting PSF. This isn't the case which is clear to see. The 32CSM have made threats against no one so why are you saying they have. This is an unfounded allegation.

I wonder Hildy have you just supported PSF since the GFA? My question arises since you come out with stuff like "Its about human rights" and its "what the majority in the north want". Republicanism isnt about that. Its about the right of the people of this country (all 32 counties not just the north) to exercise self determination, and to be a sovereign people.

[Takeshi]

Damn right a chara but of course the revisionists don't want to talk about what their british friends and pay masters did to Irish people it's suits their agenda to say that Omagh was the biggest loss of life in living memory and it also suits their agenda to ignore the Dublin and Monaghan bombings

Omagh was the largest loss of life in a single incident. It's a terrible thing when the enemy kills Irish people, but when Irish people are slaughtered on the streets of their town due to the criminal recklessness of Irish Republicans, it's even worse.

[Hildy]

Im not saying your an anti republican but there is a big contradiction between your stated republican beliefs and some of the things you uphold such as your belief that resistance is criminal. Also Hildy my statements are not outlandish and I can back up anything I say, unlike you. Also SF are not the best example of republicanism. How can they be as the reject one of the key tenants of Irish Republicanism namely "the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland ... to be sovereign and indefeasible" Thats from the proclamation by the way and something which every republican should uphold. Also James Connolly said that the British "have no right in Ireland, never had and right in Ireland and never will have any right in Ireland." Suppose however this is just rhetoric to you. To me however it is at the heart of what my republicanism is based on.

I would also like you to show me where I have been trying to discredit 'shinners'. Show the threads.

quirk, you are constantly mocking my belief that 'resistance' is criminal. It is in my view wrong. Anyone that is killed in this time of peace is criminal, whether you want to label it as resistance or not! You are not in a 'war' anymore, the people of the north are settled into peace. Just because you say its not doesn't mean that's true! Your example of the key elements of Irish Republicanism from years ago, do not apply today, in my opinion. Those thoughts and statements were made when there was no other alternative, there now is an alternative, and that is peace! Its all about 'political alternatives' not about another 'armed struggle'. You see it differently than I do. By trying to discredit me based on that is discrediting the belief of all SF supporters.

The peace process has transformed Irish society. Problems that
only a decade ago seemed intractable are now being addressed
one by one. In the post-Good Friday Agreement period,
increased all-Ireland cooperation is creating huge opportunities
for everyone. Sinn Féin has driven the peace process. As the
only all-Ireland party, we continue to drive the agenda for
positive change.

If the DUP refuse to accept the outcome of this election then
Sinn Féin is committed to ensuring that the agenda for positive
change continues. That is what Irish Republicanism is about.

Since we last went before the people of the Six Counties to seek
a mandate in 2005, the IRA took an historic unilateral initiative
that has opened unprecedented democratic opportunities.

Subsequently, Sinn Féin negotiators secured additional progress
on the equality, human rights and policing agendas, including
commitments from both governments to:

• a substantial Peace Dividend;
• an Anti-Poverty Strategy;
• progress on a Bill of Rights and a Single Equality Bill;
• an Irish Language Act;
• an end to the bar on Irish citizens in senior civil service;
• Equality Impact Assessments of all overarching, high level policies;
• legislation to restore policing and justice powers to the
Assembly;
• the removal of MI5 from civic policing in the Six Counties.

We commenced 2007 by taking our own historic unilateral
initiative on policing. The Sinn Féin Ard Fheis decision
challenges the DUP to finally live up to its responsibilities on
power-sharing, and ensures that the new beginning to policing
will be realised and Sinn Féin will be in a position to hold the
PSNI fully to account.

Enormous progress has been made but Sinn Fein will not rest
until we have established a United Ireland of Equals.

Assembly Manifesto 2007 (http://www.sinnfeinassembly.com/media/AssemblyManifesto2007small.pdf)

You being anti-GFA, don't agree with these points but Seabird, and I, and SF Supporters do! So by trying to discredit me you are discrediting SF supporters!


In Speech by Gerry Adams to the 2007 Sinn Féin Ard Fheis, (17 February 2007) (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/docs/sf/ga030307.htm)

There is Great Hope

But there is also great hope, not least because many, many people want a better Ireland.

Public service, volunteerism, patriotism, activism and citizenship remain strong. Arts, language, literature, culture, music and sports are thriving. The community sector, carers, campaigning groups, the voluntary sector are the great unsung heroes and heroines of our time.

Despite all the difficulties the people of Ireland remain sound and hopeful about the future. Together we have all come a long way.

That is due to the courage and resilience of the thousands of people who have given the best years of their lives to the republican cause.

Tá troid s'againn bunaithe ar an íobairt a rinne said.

Ach bhí todhchaí s'againn uilig i gcónaí ar intinn na laochra seo.

Our struggle is rooted in their sacrifice. But these heroes were always about the future. The great advances of our time are built on their efforts.

They are the wind that shakes the barley.

Bobby Sands put it best when he said 'our revenge will be the laughter of our children and the liberation of all.'

The war is over. The peace must be built.

We are the peace builders.

We are the nation builders.

The next ten years will see more great advances for Ireland and for Sinn Féin. We are determined to make this country a better place for all the people.


Like for example if they said the RIRA was not an army I bet they would be able to give reasons for this and not keep avoiding it. I might not agree with their reasons but I would discuss it with them.

In my opinion, the RIRA are not any army. Just because they say they are doesn't make it so. They are a group classified as 'illegal'. Who are they fighting, the PSNI? They are a 'political pressure group' dedicated to removing british forces from the island and disrupt the 'peace process'. They have the backing of the 32CSM and limited support of former hardline EX-IRA activists and sympathizers and former Provo's who are dissatisified with the IRA ceasfire. That does not make them a bonafide army, again, IMO!

Your reasons for the heightened police presence, again in my opinion, is none other than the threats that are being made against them by the RIRA and the 'dissidents' (the media's words, not mine) and have purposely created this accellerated call for the PSNI to be on red alert, and increase in security, i.e., the articles from different news organizations (Irish News not included) refer to the RIRA as such. They all say the same thing I do, its because of the threats of violence that there is tightened security in Newry and other areas of the north. You can deny that all you want, but I don't buy it!


Here a but a few examples of the headlines this past month! Click on one any one of these and you get the same message!

As PSNI checkpoints returned to our streets following a new terror alert Brian Rowan asks how serious is the threat from dissident republicans? (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article3414311.ece)

DERRY'S dissident republican groups are among those expected to meet in Co Louth this weekend in a bid to from a new coalition aimed at causing renewed chaos in the North (http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Dissidents-meet-on-new-coalition.3758852.jp)

Unity call for dissidents to take on British (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3379160.ece)

Real IRA geared to strike again at PSNI (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/11/18/story28330.asp)

Dissidents still a threat – Orde (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Dissidents-still-a-threat-.3461016.jp)

IMC on Dissident Republicans (http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/imc_on_dissident_republicans/)

Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA)

3.26 In our Seventh Report we said that RIRA continued to be the most active of the dissident republican groups. It continued to recruit and train; had sought to improve its capacity in weapons and explosives; was responsible for real and hoax attacks; and had targeted members of the security forces. We concluded that it was violent, dangerous and determined.

3.27 In the 3 months under review in this report RIRA – within which there are two factions – has continued to seek to enhance its capacity as a paramilitary organisation. It has sought to develop its capacity to acquire intelligence, particularly on the security forces. It continues to develop its equipment and to seek both to recruit members and to acquire munitions. Some parts of the organisation are working on a long-term strategy and are focussing on the training of members.

3.28 RIRA has also undertaken acts of violence. As we said in our previous report, we believe that members of the organisation were responsible for the outrageous and very violent assault in September on Denis Bradley, the Deputy Chair of the Policing Board. It continues a campaign of intimidation and violence against those it views as anti-social, such as drug dealers, and has threatened to exile such people. It was responsible for more of the dissident republican assaults of which we are aware than other groups, including that on two loyalists in an incident not reported to the police and so not included in official figures. Its involvement in organised crime continues, and is exemplified by the arrest in November of three members, resulting in the recovery of some two million contraband cigarettes.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the gist of it!


Again you are trying to divert the argument away from what you said and trying to portray me as discrediting PSF. This isn't the case which is clear to see. The 32CSM have made threats against no one so why are you saying they have. This is an unfounded allegation.

I wonder Hildy have you just supported PSF since the GFA? My question arises since you come out with stuff like "Its about human rights" and its "what the majority in the north want". Republicanism isnt about that. Its about the right of the people of this country (all 32 counties not just the north) to exercise self determination, and to be a sovereign people.

If you deny all that SF stands for in this 'peace process' then yes you are discrediting SF! Simple as that.

If the 32CSM have not made threats against the police, but you support and stand behind the RIRA, then you might as well be the ones issuing the threats. Or don't you agree with what the RIRA and other 'dissident' (media's words not mine) factions are doing? The RIRA are the armed wing of the 32-County Sovereignty Movement are they not? You issue their statements, do you not?

And on your last note, where did I ever say that I only supported SF since the GFA? I have never said that, I have always been a SF supporter. Because I support the GFA has nothing to do with with the definition of republicanism. It does make a difference regarding the Human Rights issues, and they are important. I feel that is what is more important right now, than another 'armed struggle' and that is what I said. I did not say that was what Republicanism is all about! But it is a definite part of it, because it lays the foundation for a self-governing United Ireland! If we don't have this infrastructure in place, the system will fail miserably. That is my opinion.

The GFA "sets out a plan for devolved government in Northern Ireland on a stable and inclusive basis and provided for the creation of Human Rights and Equality commissions, the early release of terrorist prisoners, the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons and far reaching reforms of criminal justice and policing."

The Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission were created under the Agreement;"

That's what the GFA means to me, and these issues are of importance to me on a personal level. But they are in no way the definition of Republicanism and I never said they were!

[Foyleview]

Hildi. well said .
only one small point . their aim is to bring the british army back onto the streets and to increase checkpoints.

[quirk]

Hildi. well said .
only one small point . their aim is to bring the british army back onto the streets and to increase checkpoints.

Wise up. You know that is an intermediate goal so as to show that the occupation still exists. This has been IRA strategy in the past also. Do you equally mock it then.

[East Tyrone]

Wise up. You know that is an intermediate goal so as to show that the occupation still exists. This has been IRA strategy in the past also. Do you equally mock it then.

What dung is this? We don't need a crowd of halfwits threatening to burn shops and pretending they're serious about attacking the Brits to remind us that we're under occupation. 800 years of folk memory is not easily erased; sure the people haven't even forgotten 10 years ago. That's why the bullsh*t Omagh denial didn't wash either.

[Hildy]

Hildi. well said .
only one small point . their aim is to bring the british army back onto the streets and to increase checkpoints.

Thanks Foyleview, and I agree. That is EXACTLY what they're trying to do with all these threats! Anyone with 'sh!t for brains' can see that.:icon_lol:

[quirk]

quirk, you are constantly mocking my belief that 'resistance' is criminal. It is in my view wrong. Anyone that is killed in this time of peace is criminal, whether you want to label it as resistance or not! You are not in a 'war' anymore, the people of the north are settled into peace. Just because you say its not doesn't mean that's true!

I am not mocking your belief that resistance is criminal but rather I just can't understand it within the context of you being a republican. The British occupation of Ireland is illegal so therefore resistance is legal. It may in fact be illegal under British law the same as the French resistance during world war 2 was illegal under Nazi law and the same way Pearse, Connolly and Bobby Sand's resistance was also deemed illegal under British law. To recognise the resistance to the British presence as illegal you are saying that presence is therefore legal and legitimate and this is the problem I have with your point. That contradicts republicanism. I could fully understand if you said that armed struggle is legitimate although counter productive or that there is no basis for it as many members of PSF and the IRSP say. But you moved beyond that and this is something which I cannot come to terms with.

Now lets examine your point that it is criminal because it is a time of "peace". By this same logic would you therefore label it as not criminal if those carrying it out intensified it to a full scale conflict? Do you agree with this because this seems to me the logical extension of what you are saying. Also by this line of thought you must deem the 1916 rising as criminal and the resistance right up to now even at the beginning of the "troubles" as criminal because when that campaign was initially launched it was a time of "peace" also. Am I understanding you correctly here?

Your example of the key elements of Irish Republicanism from years ago, do not apply today, in my opinion. Those thoughts and statements were made when there was no other alternative, there now is an alternative, and that is peace!

My example which you say doesn't apply today is taken from the 1916 proclamation which is the basis of modern day republicanism. It states that the people of Ireland should have the right to practice sovereignty:

"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people."

Nowhere does it state that this will only apply in time of war. It is a fundamental principle of republicanism and you have just dismissed it. These are the reasons I say there is a contradiction within your position. Do you reject the whole proclamation or just this piece and do you know PSF still read this out at all there commemorations. Not only do they see it as relevant (though their practice brings this claim into question) but they also see it as the basis for a new Ireland.

Lets look at the other quote I gave which you have also claimed does not apply today:

"Believing that the British Government has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland, and never can have any right in Ireland"
James Connolly Last Statement

Again this statement does not apply only in times of war but applies to all time thus the words "never will have any right in Ireland". So if you reject this you must be of the opinion that they have a right to be in Ireland. This is another case of what you say being in contradiction with Irish republicanism.

Its all about 'political alternatives' not about another 'armed struggle'. You see it differently than I do. By trying to discredit me based on that is discrediting the belief of all SF supporters.

Its about removing the British from Ireland something which you don't seem to understand. That's what republicanism is about. You cant just twist it and make it what you want to.

I am not trying to discredit you I am arguing against your belief's and while some of these beliefs are the same as other PSF supporters (and I would also argue with them) some of your beliefs are very strange for a PSF supporter, most notably your belief the the CIRA are the legitimate IRA and that Gerry Adams is an usurper. Your belief also that resistance is criminal is not one which is shared by the majority of PSF supporters.

You being anti-GFA, don't agree with these points but Seabird, and I, and SF Supporters do! So by trying to discredit me you are discrediting SF supporters!

Again you are trying to drag other people in here by implying that I am seeking to discredit them which is rubbish. I will argue and debate with those I disagree with but I don't seek to discredit anyone.

You quoted the assembly manifesto and hi lighted the words "That is what Irish Republicanism is about." I think by doing this you are trying to say my version based on the 1916 proclamation is wrong. Well sorry but everyone on this board I think would agree with me on this issue- Republicanism is about removing the British presence in Ireland and allowing the Irish people to exercise their sovereignty. Anyone who disagrees with this is just wrong.

You then go on to quote a speech by Gerry Adams which I cant see the relevancy of in this debate. I do note however he quotes Bobby Sands saying "our revenge will be the laughter of our children and the liberation of all." Of course he must forget that Bobby Sands also said:

Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.

There is that sovereignty thing again in Bobby's quote Hildy, you know the thing you have dismissed as something which does not apply today.

In my opinion, the RIRA are not any army. Just because they say they are doesn't make it so. They are a group classified as 'illegal'. Who are they fighting, the PSNI? They are a 'political pressure group' dedicated to removing british forces from the island and disrupt the 'peace process'. They have the backing of the 32CSM and limited support of former hardline EX-IRA activists and sympathizers and former Provo's who are dissatisified with the IRA ceasfire.

You really haven't read much history of the conflict have you? Because the British deem them illegal they are not an army? Ok so the PIRA must not have been an army either in your opinion. Because they are fighting the cops they are not an army? Ok so the PIRA must not have been an army either. They fought the cops and hoped by doing so they could draw the Brits back onto the streets so as to then engage then. God that sounds familiar doesn't it. They are dedicated to removing the British forces from this island so they are not an army? Again this must mean the PIRA were not an army in your opinion. So you don't believe the RIRA is an army or that the PIRA was one. I can accept this as at least you are being consistent. Also I don't know what them having the backing or the 32CSM and "hard-line" IRA activists (sounds like something from the IMC "hardline") has got any thing to do with this issue.

That does not make them a bonafide army, again, IMO!

Didn't say it does. I asked why they are not.

Your reasons for the heightened police presence, again in my opinion, is none other than the threats that are being made against them by the RIRA and the 'dissidents' (the media's words, not mine) and have purposely created this accellerated call for the PSNI to be on red alert, and increase in security, i.e., the articles from different news organizations (Irish News not included) refer to the RIRA as such. They all say the same thing I do, its because of the threats of violence that there is tightened security in Newry and other areas of the north. You can deny that all you want, but I don't buy it!

First off if dissident is a media term then why use it? This is something I have seen repeatedly over this past few weeks from several people and I think its unacceptable in the same way that using "sell out" in quotation marks would be wrong. It may be the media's word though you are using it.

Now to the issue. You previously said that the increased security was because of a single interview and now you are retreating to a position that it is because of threats of violence in general.

I am not arguing that the increased security on the part of the Crown forces isn't the result of an increased threat, I am arguing with you saying that it was a direct result of last weeks interview because that is clearly not the case.

The interview was given by the RIRA yet the British opperation was targeted at the CIRA (or those they believe were members of CIRA) and RSF. So again Hildy just answer this question: If the operation was the result of the RIRA interview why was it not targeted at the RIRA but at another group?

I could go on and on, but I think you get the gist of it!

No I dont get the gist of it. Why are you quoting the IMC as evidence. This is a completely discredited group who says what the Brits tell them to say. There disbandment has been called for repeatedly by Sinn Fein:

The IMC is doing what it was set up to do. The IMC is a tool of the two governments.
Gerry Adamshttp://www.sinnfein.ie/gaelic/news/detail/8474


What we predicted when the IMC was established in 2003 has come true. We said then that it would be a tool of the securocrats, an instrument to be used by the opponents of change. And we said of course that it was outside the terms of the Agreement and would be used to undermine the Agreement's democratic mandate.
Martin McGuinnesshttp://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/13145

If you deny all that SF stands for in this 'peace process' then yes you are discrediting SF! Simple as that.

I don't know what you mean by deny all they stand for so could you expand please? I oppose PSF on many issues and stating that and debating it is not trying to discredit them. I also agree with them on many issues. I agree with them on the EU treaty, Tara, Irish Neutrality e.t.c.

If the 32CSM have not made threats against the police, but you support and stand behind the RIRA, then you might as well be the ones issuing the threats. Or don't you agree with what the RIRA and other 'dissident' (media's words not mine) factions are doing? The RIRA are the armed wing of the 32-County Sovereignty Movement are they not? You issue their statements, do you not?

Not the case at all. Supporting some group doesn't make you responsible for their actions. Where those who supported the IRA responsible for La Mon, Kingsmill and Enniskillen?

Again you are using the media word. If you disagree with it then why do you use it? If you agree with it can you point out what republican principles we have dissented from? Simple question.

The RIRA are the armed wing of the 32-County Sovereignty Movement are they not? You issue their statements, do you not?

The RIRA are not the armed wing of the 32CSM and we do not issue their statements.

And on your last note, where did I ever say that I only supported SF since the GFA? I have never said that, I have always been a SF supporter. Because I support the GFA has nothing to do with with the definition of republicanism. It does make a difference regarding the Human Rights issues, and they are important. I feel that is what is more important right now, than another 'armed struggle' and that is what I said. I did not say that was what Republicanism is all about! But it is a definite part of it, because it lays the foundation for a self-governing United Ireland! If we don't have this infrastructure in place, the system will fail miserably. That is my opinion.

I didn't say you only supported PSF from the GFA, but rather I asked you. I understand where you are coming here and fair play to you but for me being a republican means republicanism comes first. The GFA might ensure human rights although I am not even sure about this. Look at Newry during the week. Does not article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights state:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Did Sean Hoey not have his right breeched? Martin Brogan?

But even if Human rights were ensured (which I don't believe they are) would this be worth sacrificing republican principles for (which has happened) and ruling out any viable chance of achieving a united Ireland (which I don't think the GFA can ensure).

The GFA "sets out a plan for devolved government in Northern Ireland on a stable and inclusive basis and provided for the creation of Human Rights and Equality commissions, the early release of terrorist prisoners, the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons and far reaching reforms of criminal justice and policing."

The Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission were created under the Agreement;"

I think I have shown some examples of where human rights are not practised and I am sure that there is many many more.

[Hessian Peel]

ardonian, where does it say the IRA gave the interview? Why would the 32CSM issued a statement for the IRA? You're the one that has trouble reading, it was the Reals that gave the interview! And you know that!

Yea, leave the Officials out of this.

[jamie9988]

i don't see them harrasing unionists if they make threats do they.its discrimination

[Young Irelander]

The Real IRA can try all the want, they wil fail to bring the British Forces back on to the streets of the six counties

[TomClarke]

The Real IRA can try all the want, they wil fail to bring the British Forces back on to the streets of the six counties

whereas psf have 5000 brit soldiers safely barracked and unharrassed in their garrison in lisburn. whilst their collegues in MI5 build a huge HQ in holywood, and what to psf do about it ? nothing at all.

(except providing driving jobs for them)

[Young Irelander]

Provisional IRA killed over six hundred members of the Brits and hundreds of police men, Real IRA and Continuity IRA between the two of them, a leg, arm and a stomach, there not even cousins of a gunman, there not even the best killers in their house...

[TomClarke]

Provisional IRA killed over six hundred members of the Brits and hundreds of police men, Real IRA and Continuity IRA between the two of them, a leg, arm and a stomach, there not even cousins of a gunman, there not even the best killers in their house...


so you would like them better if they killed more people?

[Young Irelander]

Im not glorifying death, there is an alternative to an armed struggle, that is peace, that is the St. Andrews Agreement...

[TomClarke]

Provisional IRA killed over six hundred members of the Brits and hundreds of police men, Real IRA and Continuity IRA between the two of them, a leg, arm and a stomach, there not even cousins of a gunman, there not even the best killers in their house...

and the 704 civilians killed by the IRA? do you take the same pride in the IRA's compotence in this field???

[Young Irelander]

The Provisional IRA where imcompetent? You have some nerve... They where a bigger more efficient army than the micro groups...

[TomClarke]

The Provisional IRA where imcompetent? You have some nerve... They where a bigger more efficient army than the micro groups...


you need to read my last post again, i never said they were INcompetent. i was asking you if you had the same pride for IRA's effciency in killing 704 civilians?

[Young Irelander]

The Provisional Republican Movement apologized to non-combatants what else can they do?

[Newry Republican]

The Provisional IRA where imcompetent? You have some nerve... They where a bigger more efficient army than the micro groups...

The Provisional IRA were a Dissident Republican "micro group" when they split with the sticks were they not?

[TomClarke]

so with a little shrug of the sholders gets youover the death of 704 deaths, and allows you to become the moral guardian of east tyrone, and pontificate over what "micro-groups" can or cannot do?

[Young Irelander]

They split but they where not a micro group they where rivals and the stickies went on permenant cessation. The Provisional IRA took over as the fore runner for the reunification of the Irish Republic

[Young Irelander]

A shrug of shoulders, the Provisional Republican Movement made mistakes, every great liberation army does, that is war, Hamas, PLO, ETA and the ANC all made mistakes, there is no such thing as a kill less war that is impossible to achive, micro groups have no political mandate and a overwhelming majority voted for the implemenatation of the GFA, and this was further proving by the huge votes for Pro-Agreement parties compared to the Anti-Agreement parties...

[Newry Republican]

They split but they where not a micro group they where rivals and the stickies went on permenant cessation. The Provisional IRA took over as the fore runner for the reunification of the Irish Republic

they were smaller than the sticks when they split so could you explain what a "micro group" is?

[TomClarke]

what political mandate had the PIRA when they got up and going in the late 60s and early 70s?

[Young Irelander]

9-12 Belfast groupings sided with the Provisional IRA, how are the Officials larger? The Real IRA and Continuity IRA are micro groups, small groupings...

[Young Irelander]

The Political Mandate of the working-class republicans/nationalists

[TomClarke]

The Political Mandate of the working-class republicans/nationalists

what on earth does that mean?

[Young Irelander]

Read it

[TomClarke]

well i took my time and re read it, a few times too!

still dont know what you mean by "The Political Mandate of the working-class republicans/nationalists"

is that votes or something?

[Young Irelander]

No the support of the working class communites

[Newry Republican]

9-12 Belfast groupings sided with the Provisional IRA, how are the Officials larger? The Real IRA and Continuity IRA are micro groups, small groupings...

Comrade goulding got a 39 to 12 majority vote in the IRA Convention when they split. The minority anti goulding faction then walked out to form the provisional IRA. Who disagreed with the way that the goulding crowd were going so how were the Provisionals not dissidents?

I didnt say the officals are larger i said they were when they split. also if your definition of a "micro group" is a small grouping do you not agree that the Provisionals were a micro group considering they were smaller than the sticks when they split?

[TomClarke]

ah so votes didnt really matter to the PIRA in the early days?
and how much support did they need to launch an attack on the RUC BA or loyalist?

how do you measure that support?

i am interested to see, that if we dont need votes, what mechanism indicates the level of your support?

[Young Irelander]

9-12 Belfast groupings sided with the Provisional Republican Movement, most Northern members sided with the Provisionals, the Officials where under Dublin Leadearship, while the Provisional was under Belfast Leadership...

[Young Irelander]

Will the public outcry of the Belfast ghettos by Protestant Progroms, the burning down of houses just because they are simply Roman Catholic, discrimination in a Protestant elected country, gerrymandering, discrimination in housing and jobs, the Police Force being a Protestant Paramilitary force against Republican minded individuals, events such as the Battle of the Bogside, Bloody Sunday the curfew of the Falls Road, events such as this got the support of the Irish Republican Working Classes

[quirk]

What about earlier campaigns including the 1916 rising when they didn't have such support? Would you condemn these in the same way you condemn republican separatists?

[TomClarke]

yes, i am aware of the events that took place. however i was interested to see what the level of support was the PIRA was, NOT why people supported them.

did they, for example, represent the views of the majority of nationlists in the 6cos?

[Newry Republican]

9-12 Belfast groupings sided with the Provisional Republican Movement, most Northern members sided with the Provisionals, the Officials where under Dublin Leadearship, while the Provisional was under Belfast Leadership...

Comrade i know you and Tom Clarke are in the middle of something so i just want you to answer me two questions and ill leave both of you to get stuck in to each other.

Explain to me how the Provisionals weren't Dissidents when they lost a democratic vote and walked out from the sticks ? yet when O Bradaigh walked out in 86 in similar circumstances they are branded as Dissidents

How were the Provisionals not a "micro group" when they were smaller at the time of the split?

[Newry Republican]

by the way i ****ing hate the words "Dissidents" and "micro groups" which seems to have cropped up overnight

[Young Irelander]

Republican micro groups offer no political alternative or resistance alternative, as for the men of the Easter Rising of course I would not condemn these men, they are far more worthy Irish Patriots than the micro groups of today, the Republican Sinn Fein and 32 County Soverignity Movements do not have a political mandate, while Sinn Fein got an overwhelming vote in the recent Stormant elections, the Real IRA and Continuity IRA I would compare to the song Gloomy Sunday, there is despair and no hope for the person talked about this is the same for their so-called armed campaigns all they are doing is ruining peoples lives and families, they offer no serious alternative to Sinn Fein's strategy... As for the support, do you think the Provisionals would have carried out the liberation struggle if they did not have the support of the people? Many people joined their ranks, im sure these people would not have joined if there family was not republican minded.

[quirk]

"The IRA needs no political mandate, it derives its mandate from the presence of the British in the six counties"
Gerry Adams

What's changed since Adams rightly said this?

[TomClarke]

but the pira started off a micro group and grew.

so why not the CIRA and RIRA?

you know the SDLP accepted the RUC for years

[Young Irelander]

Where is the information you want to show me Newry Republican? My information shows that 9-12 Belfast groupings joined the Provisional IRA which was roughly 100-130 Activists and a few hundred supporters, they Provisionals where not a big grouping back then

[Young Irelander]

What has changed Quirk that there is a political alternative to the armed struggle, the people voted overwhelmingly for the endorsment and the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and in the recent Stormant elections alot morw votes where sided with the Pro-Agreement Parties compared to the Anti-Agreement canidates, Gerry Adams political ideology has changed throughout the last of the thirty years...

[Young Irelander]

Will Tom that is a possibility, time will soon tell..

[Newry Republican]

Here young fella could you at least try and answer my 2 questions.

The Provos where smaller than the sticks when they split!
You stated that a micro group is a small group.

So do you not agree that they were a "micro group"?

They walked out of a convention when they lost the vote!

So do you not agree that they were "Dissidents"?

I cant put these questions any easier for you so can you give me a straight answer instead of the gibberish.

im getting my info from a book called the secret history of the IRA

[TomClarke]

What has changed Quirk that there is a political alternative to the armed struggle, the people voted overwhelmingly for the endorsment and the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and in the recent Stormant elections alot morw votes where sided with the Pro-Agreement Parties compared to the Anti-Agreement canidates, Gerry Adams political ideology has changed throughout the last of the thirty years...


there was always been a political alternative to the armed struggle... so stop revising your course of history to say that the provos were left with no choice but persue armed struggle. you read too much jim gibney

[Young Irelander]

Will when 9-12 groupings joined the Provisional Ranks, how can they be the smaller organisation? I already stated that there was only a small amount of members...

[quirk]

What has changed Quirk that there is a political alternative to the armed struggle, the people voted overwhelmingly for the endorsment and the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and in the recent Stormant elections alot morw votes where sided with the Pro-Agreement Parties compared to the Anti-Agreement canidates, Gerry Adams political ideology has changed throughout the last of the thirty years...

But the quote does not say they have a mandate until there is a more acceptable form of British rule in Ireland, but until the British go. The political alternative of which you speak has next to no chance of achieving a united Ireland. I find it strange that PSF supporters always criticise others saying they have no alternative to the PSF strategy which wrongly implies that PSF have a viable strategy. Viable is certainly not what I would call the believe that you can persuade unionists to become nationalists and then British decide to allow a united Ireland.

[Young Irelander]

You look like Jim Gibney...

[Young Irelander]

Then what is the alternative to Sinn Fein's strategy?

[quirk]

Then what is the alternative to Sinn Fein's strategy?

PSF don't have a strategy. No other groups claim they have all the answers like the provos do.

[Young Irelander]

Sinn Fein dont have a strategy, look at this then
http://www.irelandofequals.com/

[quirk]

Sinn Fein dont have a strategy, look at this then
http://www.irelandofequals.com/

PSF have accepted that the Brits will have the final say on the status of the 6 counties. Not only was this a stupid move but it was anti republican. Persuading unionists to become nationalists by making the north a better place to live in the hope that this will persuade the Brits to cede sovereignty is not a viable strategy. If you think it is then I am amazed.

[Newry Republican]

Will when 9-12 groupings joined the Provisional Ranks, how can they be the smaller organisation? I already stated that there was only a small amount of members...

No one is disputing the fact that the Provisionals grew. But at the convention they disagreed with the way that the goulding crowd were heading and walked out when they lost the vote?

they WERE a minority so therefore they WERE a "micro group"

Also another source of my info is a pocket history of the troubles which also states "Those opposed to the leadership, a minority in 1969, broke away and called themselves the Provisional IRA"

[Young Irelander]

Will let me see here you said Sinn Fein has no serious political options for the reunification of the Irish Republic, while they have created All-Ireland institutions on Agriculture etc, they are demanding that people whom call themselves Irish in the North should be allowed to vote in the Irish President Elections, allow representation of the North MP's in the Irish Republic, created a "Green Party" and many more innovative and intelligent thinking towards the reunification of the Irish Republic.

[Young Irelander]

Yet 9-12 of the Belfast Groupings sided with the Provisional IRA?

[quirk]

But how will this remove the Brits. Why allow the Brits the final say?

[TomClarke]

they created a Green Party? what?

[TomClarke]

Will let me see here you said Sinn Fein has no serious political options for the reunification of the Irish Republic, while they have created All-Ireland institutions on Agriculture etc, they are demanding that people whom call themselves Irish in the North should be allowed to vote in the Irish President Elections, allow representation of the North MP's in the Irish Republic, created a "Green Party" and many more innovative and intelligent thinking towards the reunification of the Irish Republic.

could you tell more of these innovative and intelligent ideas?

[Newry Republican]

Yet 9-12 of the Belfast Groupings sided with the Provisional IRA?

yes my good friend after the split!

But im talking about at the time of the split!
So do you not agree with me when i say they WERE a minority so therefore they WERE a "micro group"?

[Young Irelander]

It is convinving the Unionist/Loyalist people that the All-Ireland bodies are ecenomically more viable and that more investment can be achieved from foriegn countries, houses will dropped etc, look at the Corporate Tax inititave that has brought the Celtic Tiger Boom and has made Eire's economies a leading force, do you think that the Unionists/Loyalists will not be intrested in wise economical thinking, they need to be convinved under a new Ireland that they have a place in it and they will not be discriminated against and that their religious believes and culture and everything they identify with will be respected, its not the Brits stopping the reunification of the Irish Republic, its the scared Unionist/Loyalist