is the view of the IRSP defeatist?

[on_remand]

“We are very clear that republicanism has suffered a defeat. The war is over and those who have, any lingering thoughts on re-commencing with a view to victory are deluded"

this is a quote by gerry ruddy, i think it is very defeatist, and he thinks that "class struggle" is the way forward for a united ireland. how and why i ask??

[Éire32CS]

I do believe that it is because they have the strong view to support the views of the people and they view the majority of people do not want to go back to war.
Build through the strength of the will of the working class and work together to build the better future for us all etc

[on_remand]

no doubt class struggle will play a part, don't know how big, but to say "republicanism has suffered a defeat" is like waving the white flag. i would consider myself a supporter of the IRSM but when that was said, it hit me for 6. i rejected this view outright.
i wonder what members of the INLA thought.

[Vox Populi]

no doubt class struggle will play a part, don't know how big, but to say "republicanism has suffered a defeat" is like waving the white flag. i would consider myself a supporter of the IRSM but when that was said, it hit me for 6. i rejected this view outright.
i wonder what members of the INLA thought.Republicanism has suffered a staggering defeat, the Good Friday Agreement is a British programme that secures the union and has the major nationalist party working to a British agenda. Those groups currently not on ceasefire have no prospect of starting another war up and dreaming of it is just fantasy.

[on_remand]

"republicanism" is not only the armed struggle and war though.

if he thought republicanism was defeated why didnt he pack his bags and go home? in suggesting so, to me, meant that "that's it boys, were done"

[quirk]

"republicanism" is not only the armed struggle and war though.

if he thought republicanism was defeated why didnt he pack his bags and go home? in suggesting so, to me, meant that "that's it boys, were done"

A defeat is different from total defeat. Republicanism has suffered a massive defeat with the GFA.

[Jim]

There are plenty of people like anthony mcintyre for example that talk about outright defeat for republicanism and basically pish on everything we do but at least gerry ruddy and the irsm puts forward policies etc to achieve their aims.

I wouldnt say republicanism has been defeated because we are still here after all thats been thrown at us and will be thrown at us but as i said on another thread its a time for rebuilding republicanism and it wont happen overnight as the republican base compared to what it was isnt great.

[Vox Populi]

"republicanism" is not only the armed struggle and war though.

if he thought republicanism was defeated why didnt he pack his bags and go home? in suggesting so, to me, meant that "that's it boys, were done"Well, Gerry Ruddy certainly doesn't believe that the struggles over. As was said at the unity meetings, a regrouping is necessary, but fundamentaly unless Republicanism learns from the past mistakes, particularly in military terms, it will continue to be a failure.

[Connolly]

“We are very clear that republicanism has suffered a defeat. The war is over and those who have, any lingering thoughts on re-commencing with a view to victory are deluded"

>A< defeat. That letter makes a huge difference in the context of that sentence. You cant win all the time, there will be defeats. Armed struggle, in the view of the IRSM, has been defeated. For now at least.

[no one]

"republicanism has suffered A defeat" is far different than saying republicanism has been defeated.

class war is not only a part of it, but a main component of the struggle, if not the forefront.

[soldier of life]

realism can often sound defeatist,but no point in delusion when honesty is what should be promoted.there is no way a return to 'war' from one of the para groups would further the cause at this stage.however the future is not decided yet and a time may come again when the tactic will be beneficial and something the people of ireland support

[RSF-Fianoglach]

i believe jerry ruddy is putting down REPUBLICANISM in the hope it is discarded completly in exchange for absolute socialism.

[Hessian Peel]

i believe jerry ruddy is putting down REPUBLICANISM in the hope it is discarded completly in exchange for absolute socialism.

Mabye, but what about Gerry Ruddy?

[redflag32]

i believe jerry ruddy is putting down REPUBLICANISM in the hope it is discarded completly in exchange for absolute socialism.

Well as far as i know Gerry Ruddy is in the Republican Socialist party, not the Socialist Party, so why on earth would he want to "discard" an element of the struggle-for working class liberation (republicanism/national independence)-which he sees as integral to it?

[scarface]

“We are very clear that republicanism has suffered a defeat. The war is over and those who have, any lingering thoughts on re-commencing with a view to victory are deluded"

this is a quote by gerry ruddy, i think it is very defeatist, and he thinks that "class struggle" is the way forward for a united ireland. how and why i ask??

I don't agree with much of what Gerry Ruddy says but he's dead right the GFA was a massive defeat for Republicanism and it was because of the same reason that republicanism has suffered all it's previous defeats

[FreeDerry20]

shocked and dispointed aswell at this comment from this fella. We will never be defeated while Ireland has her Sons.

[Vox Populi]

We will never be defeated while Ireland has her Sons.The people aren't going to flock to Republicans unless we recognise the failures of the past. It wasn't a case of Adams and McGuinness, the entire Provisional Movement was rotten to the core from the beginning.

[Vox Populi]

Consider this argument by Gerry Ruddy - http://www.rsym.org/national/three-areas-of-struggle.html

Is his position untenable?

[Caoimhain]

“We are very clear that republicanism has suffered a defeat. The war is over and those who have, any lingering thoughts on re-commencing with a view to victory are deluded"

this is a quote by gerry ruddy, i think it is very defeatist, and he thinks that "class struggle" is the way forward for a united ireland. how and why i ask??


The Irish struggle is a class struggle. Anything else 'is only national recreancy.' - James Connolly (http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1897/01/socnat.htm)

[IMTsweden]

“We are very clear that republicanism has suffered a defeat. The war is over and those who have, any lingering thoughts on re-commencing with a view to victory are deluded"

this is a quote by gerry ruddy, i think it is very defeatist, and he thinks that "class struggle" is the way forward for a united ireland. how and why i ask??

This is maybe old news for you all, but I just came across 32csm paper on pdf:
http://www.32csm.org/sovnationJuly-August2007.pdf
There they printed Gerrys speech at Bodenstown, where he deals with the defeat and the way forward:

"The presence here today of differing shades of republicanism
is a clear sign of the times we live in. We in the Republican
Socialist tradition say clearly that Irish Republicanism has suffered
a grave defeat. Today we point the finger for that defeat clearly at
the forces of British Imperialism. There is little to be gained by
pointing an accusing finger at anyone other than the British.

Too many times in the past Republicans have allowed
themselves to be manipulated into turning on our own. We say no
more. No more name calling, no more feuds, no more marginalisation,
and exclusion. No more bitterness and divisions. No more!!

Of course what differences we have we should clearly
outline them and articulate our positions but without rancour or
spite and extending respect to the views of others. Not only is that the
right thing to do but it is in the overall interest of Republicanism that
we do so. For we need to win over the mass of the people to our view
and that can't be done by preaching only to the converted here at
Bodenstown.

Where ever there is struggle, protest, strike or demonstrations
the banner of Irish Republicanism must be firmly seen providing
leadership. That is the way to renew Republicanism in the
21st century. W e must become relevant to the lives and aspirations
of the ordinary people and our demands and actions strike a cord in
the heart of the ordinary men and women in the street. In today's
world change is the only constant. Everything changes adapts or it
dies. We here today must, if Republicanism is to remain relevant,
adjust to changing circumstances and times. But never at the cost of
our fundamental core beliefs that actually make us what we are.

We in the Irish Republican Socialist Movement are clear
about our position that there can not be independence without
socialism nor socialism without independence. For us the liberation
of the working class in Ireland is our primary goal. Therefore we
seek to win the working class to the banner of socialism. But we
clearly recognise that the major contradiction in society is the partition
of the island and the continuing presence of imperialism."

I don't think this is a defeatist message.
yours,
Patrik

[boiler-1888]

It’s not defeated if it is still there is it. No matter how weak it maybe it is there. As for Gerry comment and the front page of the recent Starry Plough that contained a head stone with RIP radical republicanism engraved on it, it appeared defeatist. To say that the War was over after the Border campaign would have hindsight has shown would have been a mistake.

To put militant republicanism in its grave is a defeatist mindset that only advances the objective of the British government that is occupying Irish territory. Class struggle has it place but in the case of the occupied six counties and it deep sectarian divisions red flag waving Marxism is dead in the water.

[IMTsweden]

It’s not defeated if it is still there is it. No matter how weak it maybe it is there. As for Gerry comment and the front page of the recent Starry Plough that contained a head stone with RIP radical republicanism engraved on it, it appeared defeatist. To say that the War was over after the Border campaign would have hindsight has shown would have been a mistake.

To put militant republicanism in its grave is a defeatist mindset that only advances the objective of the British government that is occupying Irish territory. Class struggle has it place but in the case of the occupied six counties and it deep sectarian divisions red flag waving Marxism is dead in the water.

Yes, I agree that the head stone over the grave of radical republicanism was of poor taste. Thank god it was not on the front page, but on page 7 as an illustration to Liam O Ruairc's articel "Radical Republicanism: Between death and resurrection". If that one was defeatist; don't let Gerry take the heat for that.
Yours,
Patrik

[boiler-1888]

I can be corrected but i think there was a reference to it on the front page. The SP is a great paper, hope they can sort out whatever problems they have and get it running in a month by month basis.

[neilhere]

I must admit i find alot of what Gerry Ruddy says about the class struggle hard to swallow, given the fact that he lives in a middle upper class area where houses are valued at over half a million.

[Hessian Peel]

I must admit i find alot of what Gerry Ruddy says about the class struggle hard to swallow, given the fact that he lives in a middle upper class area where houses are valued at over half a million.

How is that relevant at all when judging the man's politics?

He's a knowledgeable and genuine Marxist activist and it's a shame there isn't more like him in the RSM.

[neilhere]

How is that relevant at all when judging the man's politics?

He's a knowledgeable and genuine Marxist activist and it's a shame there isn't more like him in the RSM.

Well i think it is relevant when he is lecturing people on class politics.


Does it not condradict his marxist beliefs? I thought big houses in wealthy areas were for the bourgeoisie, not the proletariat.

[wherenow]

Ta scéal faoi Karl Marx.

There is a story about Marx. He was due to speak somewhere in England and the committe organising the event went to meet him at the railway station. They went to the platform and were waiting for him to get off the train.

Some members were disgusted to see he had travelled first class and challenged him on this, asking why as a socialsit he had not travelled third class.

He said socailism is not about making everybody travel third class it is about letting us all travel first class.

[neilhere]

Ta scéal faoi Karl Marx.

There is a story about Marx. He was due to speak somewhere in England and the committe organising the event went to meet him at the railway station. They went to the platform and were waiting for him to get off the train.

Some members were disgusted to see he had travelled first class and challenged him on this, asking why as a socialsit he had not travelled third class.

He said socailism is not about making everybody travel third class it is about letting us all travel first class.

Thats a very good quote.

[orangeman]

Well i think it is relevant when he is lecturing people on class politics.


Does it not condradict his marxist beliefs? I thought big houses in wealthy areas were for the bourgeoisie, not the proletariat.

I really hope Gerry answers this post.

[Seán1798]

He said socailism is not about making everybody travel third class it is about letting us all travel first class.

And until that day anybody who doesn't sit with the poorest and show solidarity isn't a socialist they're a fake IMO.

[IrelandUnfree]

And until that day anybody who doesn't sit with the poorest and show solidarity isn't a socialist they're a fake IMO.
IMO, if it worked that way socialism would be dead.

[Hessian Peel]

Thats a very good quote.

And it answers your question.

[neilhere]

And it answers your question.


Not really. I still find it hard to understand why a supposed socialist who is dedicated to the working class lives in a big expensive house in such a welthy area. He is hardly on the standard industrial workers wage living there.

[Hessian Peel]

Not really. I still find it hard to understand why a supposed socialist who is dedicated to the working class lives in a big expensive house in such a welthy area. He is hardly on the standard industrial workers wage living there.

You still haven't explained how this is relevant.

[Emiliano Zapata]

Not really. I still find it hard to understand why a supposed socialist who is dedicated to the working class lives in a big expensive house in such a welthy area. He is hardly on the standard industrial workers wage living there.

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. I want to change it, but while I live in it I will try to do so comfortably. I would rather live well than do a dead end job and wonder where my next meal is coming from, or try and live off the dole. If I could get a 6 figure job which i enjoy then I would do it. Rather than do a 4 figure job I certainly wont enjoy. It makes me no less a marxist, the same applies with Gerry.

[Seán1798]

[B][FONT="Courier New"]We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. I want to change it,

Then stop joining in with it. Simple as. Even if you live as the very poorest here you'll still be infinitely better off than the majority of people in the world who are on less than $2 per day and lack even clean water. The exploitation of man by man depends on people like you joining in with the system responsible.

[neilhere]

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. I want to change it, but while I live in it I will try to do so comfortably. I would rather live well than do a dead end job and wonder where my next meal is coming from, or try and live off the dole. If I could get a 6 figure job which i enjoy then I would do it. Rather than do a 4 figure job I certainly wont enjoy. It makes me no less a marxist, the same applies with Gerry.

what exactly is his 6 figure job? I thought he worked for the IRSP full time!

Also what happens if it becomes a socialist society? Will he then sell up and live among the working classes?

[Emiliano Zapata]

what exactly is his 6 figure job? I thought he worked for the IRSP full time!

Also what happens if it becomes a socialist society? Will he then sell up and live among the working classes?

When did I say he had a 6 figure job? I said I myself wouldn't turn one down.

[neilhere]

When did I say he had a 6 figure job? I said I myself wouldn't turn one down.

Sorry thought that what you were implying. Well clearly he isnt surving on a working class person wage to aford to live there.

Also you failed to answer what happens if it becomes a socialist society? Will he then sell up and live among the working classes?

[Emiliano Zapata]

Then stop joining in with it. Simple as. Even if you live as the very poorest here you'll still be infinitely better off than the majority of people in the world who are on less than $2 per day and lack even clean water. The exploitation of man by man depends on people like you joining in with the system responsible.

Its not how you live in the world, its how you see the world, and its how you want to change the world. I have an iPod, I havea PS3, I probably give money to big companies every day or at least many times a week, but I don't own the means of production. I'm nobodies boss.

Communism is a working-class movement. We, as socialists and communists, should not be trying to elevate ourselves to some deity-like status that we'll encourage the working-class to attempt to attain. If you, as a working class person, can afford something, it doesn't make you any less of a leftist. After all, we can't have our revolution until capitalism has reached its peak, so becoming like primitivists wont help any one of us.

[Emiliano Zapata]

Sorry thought that what you were implying. Well clearly he isnt surving on a working class person wage to aford to live there.

Also you failed to answer what happens if it becomes a socialist society? Will he then sell up and live among the working classes?

Ask him yourself.

[Seán1798]

Its not how you live in the world, its how you see the world,

LOL Faith and not works, the Catholic Philosophy.

[Emiliano Zapata]

LOL Faith and not works, the Catholic Philosophy.

lol whatever, your full of yourself.

If someone comes from a wealthy background but is commited to working class movements and struggle, I could care less. Pleanty of working-class people take on ruling class attitudes or act in ways that is benificial for the ruling class and detrimental to the working class (cops, strikebreakers, and so on). So-called class-traitorism goes both ways and people from upper classes arn't inherently blind to seeing how messed up the prioreties of this society are.

[Red Revolutionary]

Well i think it is relevant when he is lecturing people on class politics.


Does it not condradict his marxist beliefs? I thought big houses in wealthy areas were for the bourgeoisie, not the proletariat.

Castro and Guevara both came from wealthy familys.
Not to mention the Revolutionaries involved in the Russian Revolution.